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17th AB / 194th Glider Infantry Regiment, D Company Re-enacting group Prague, Czech republic


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#51 Sheikh Al Stranghi

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:20 AM

I see just 1 guy with goggles...

Camp Lucky Strike was a camp where the 17th was, too.


Yet there is nothing to suggest they are portraying a "camp lucky strike" setting. It's all thrown together. Before we can possibly make any constructive remarks, it would first be nessacery for them to answer the question: What do you portray?d



@Oz: 1 nonregulation leather jacket on an undated MP photo does not justify the use of those things, especially when it's an A2 being worn in typical airbornism fashion. What are you trying to prove with the 2nd pic?

Cheers




P.S. By showing a dead POW you are confessing to war crimes?

Edited by Sheikh Al Stranghi, 25 January 2011 - 02:30 AM.


#52 Sheikh Al Stranghi

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:35 AM

My point: The portrayal of many of the items you list, (some correct and some not) may be off the mark when all taken at the same time in one reenactment, so your point has some merit. But I am glad that there are folks in Europe who are taking the time to honor in as best a way as they can the sacrifice of our greatest generation. Not everyone has the dough to buy the right "kit". I'm just as happy to see a 14 year old kid in 1970s vintage fatigues at a WW2 event as I am to see a six figure salaried executive in 100% original US WW2 items. The effect of the spirit is the same; love of history and honor for those who fought. I doubt there's a WW2 vet who would be offended by wrong kit. post war chin cups and all of the other items. I do not see any damage being done by the portrayal and I support what they are doing.


Buy right the first time and you'll save money. Proper kit does not need to be expensive. There is a lot of 2nd hand and cheap chinese stuff that can be used, post war helmets, etc. Only expensive thing is the rifle. An impression is made by attempting to wear the right thing in the right way at the right time. You bet, veterans DO notice when something is "just not right". I've seen 15 year olds with excellent airborne impressions. All they need is a little guidance. Same with this group: They have all the right kit, just no idea what they are doing. Oh, and a GIR is not the same as a PIR. Even though very similar later in the war in terms of kit, there are some clear differences. Can't use PIR photographs as a reference for 194th GIR reenacting. There is also a clear difference between "getting beat up in the field" and starting out wrong to begin with. A unit that has lived out in the field does not look like this.

Edited by Sheikh Al Stranghi, 25 January 2011 - 02:49 AM.


#53 Shiftyfreak

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:00 AM

I have to totally agree with Sheik here, it's about what your trying to re-enact. I find here a mix of a base camp and a combat situation.
Most of the time I am just getting frustrated people actually don't have any clue what to re-enact. As Sheik said were almost seeing here 10 totally different impressions and I honestly rather see 1 squad in the same suite that really sets a good example of a squad. These guys were most of the time equipped with the same gear and uniform and off course there are differents here and there between the men but I think we try to show people a specific unit and not 10 different ones.

The key for a good impressions is to know first what your really trying to re-enact. Time / Unit and from there you can look what the gear / uniform should be. If this is getting coordinated by one and the group is taking this over I am sure you will be able to get a great and correct impression.

#54 Vik

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:10 AM

All photos is from this events:

1/ Camp Lucky Strike
2/ Varsity (event Sahara-SK)
3/ outing in France (streets of Prague)
4/ dance party (Pilsen - CZ)
5/ Varsity (event Doubice - CZ)

Sorry about the MIX.

#55 Vik

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:10 AM

For "Shake":

few things...

giant red cross vests (KFC!) - viz photo...
Posted Image

Knives tied to suspenders - M3 tied to back pack. Why not to suspenders? Viz photo..
Posted Image

#56 Vik

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:11 AM

M41 and especially M42 suits for glider riders - viz photos
Posted Image
Posted Image

#57 Vik

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:12 AM

Stuff tucked under helmet nets - viz photo..
Posted Image

Flopping chincups - viz photo
Posted Image

#58 Vik

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:12 AM

leather jackets - viz photo..
Posted Image

pocket patches - viz photo..
Posted Image

#59 Vik

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:13 AM

Lack of wool shirts - photo of medic with M42 without wool shirt - Varsity
Posted Image
and gliders without wool shirt (check M41)
Posted Image

....we know abouth some incorect things in our impesion, but we are still studying and improving it.


To 17thairborne: Thank you for your comment & photos.

Victor

Edited by Vik, 25 January 2011 - 05:20 AM.


#60 Vik

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:20 AM

Sry abouth my english... :thumbdown:

Edited by Vik, 25 January 2011 - 05:22 AM.


#61 capa

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 06:14 AM

Vik,
Let me start by saying thank you for what you are doing! I personally appreciate it very much when citizens of other countries recognize and honor the sacrifices of those Americans who died and served to defend liberty and democracy.
As to the negative criticism, I am no expert in reenacting WWII but I certainly know what good manners are. To come out swinging and bashing your efforts is counterproductive at the very least. You stated numerous times that you and your group were open to CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and I feel bad that some people have not offered that to you. Just ignore it and know that you are doing a good thing.
Many thanks!
Capa

#62 Sheikh Al Stranghi

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:34 AM

Those photos are not all 194th GIR. Please add the units and dates to the photos.

#63 poch

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:40 AM

To Capa: Thank you for your words.
We are trying to do our re-enacting as best as we are able. We use period photos we have got from veterans to make our impresion. Vic sent picture (the second last) of bunch of soldiers and one is wearing M1941 jacket. Look carefully at their uniforms. These boys are gliders from B company 194th GIR in spring 1945 in Germany. This picture was given to us by Pvt. Jack Ariola, veteran of this unit.

As Vic has already said, we know some thing are incorrect, eg.: we know that we hold rifles wrong way. But it is bad habit from curent training. Etc., etc.

#64 Vik

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:58 AM

To Sheikh: Do you have any period photos of 194th where you can shows us your coments abouth our mistakes. Thanx

#65 17thairborne

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:59 AM

Vik,
Let me start by saying thank you for what you are doing! I personally appreciate it very much when citizens of other countries recognize and honor the sacrifices of those Americans who died and served to defend liberty and democracy.
As to the negative criticism, I am no expert in reenacting WWII but I certainly know what good manners are. To come out swinging and bashing your efforts is counterproductive at the very least. You stated numerous times that you and your group were open to CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and I feel bad that some people have not offered that to you. Just ignore it and know that you are doing a good thing.
Many thanks!
Capa


Capa...way to go!

oz

#66 Vik

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:07 AM

Capa & 17thairborne: I agree with you! Absolutely.

#67 Daniel R. Allen

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:33 AM

I found some various photos of 17th Airborne and 194th GIR, 193rd GIR too ;)

http://www.eucmh.com...os/194-gir-001/
http://www.eucmh.com...os/194-gir-002/
http://www.eucmh.com...os/194-gir-003/
http://www.eucmh.com...17th-ab-1945-3/
http://www.eucmh.com...-photos-1945-2/
http://www.eucmh.com...17th-ab-1945-5/

Edited by Daniel R. Allen, 25 January 2011 - 09:35 AM.


#68 Vik

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 12:55 AM

Thank you Daniel. I know this web pages. Photos are the best!

#69 Sheikh Al Stranghi

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 04:32 PM

@Daniel: Nice photographs!

@ Vik: Posting photographs of medics does not prove a thing about the 194th. You still really need to consider when the photographs were taken, and what the men in the photograph were doing. It's hard to judge sources. The M41 jacket photo does not prove that during varsity people were walking around "normandy style". The reactions you posted on the flopping chincups and pocket patches do not prove a thing either because I do not see chincups nor pocket patches in either photo. I know a number of men were parachute trained in the 194th but that does not mean a lot of parachutist's equipment was used, nor should it be the standard. On the wearing of wool shirts: The photo you posted was taken in the field, where such things can be done, weather permitting. The reenacted photos are in a camp setting though. You'd be out of uniform, which is not permissable in a base camp. I do not see evidence for the common use of PT shirts either. Two officers in leather jackets on a photograph dated september 1945(!) does not prove a thing about wartime use of leather jackets (of a different type than shown) either. Post war garrison\camp photographs cant be used as a proper source for combat operations.

You guys need more standardization, and a theme to what you are doing. If you would start by:
First, choose several dates. For example , 24-27 march 1945 for a combat\field impression, and for camp impressions, for example England summer 1944. Keep the two separated. Then, set a standard for all time periods, as for what to wear, and make a list of permissable exceptions with a little background info. For each period and location, see if you can find some primary sources like veterans reports and photographs. Don't fall for the "I've seen a photo labelled 17th AB showing so-and-so, so we can do this as well" trap.

Remember you're a unit, a company, platoon even, and not a bunch of thrown-together exceptions. Remember the context.
Also remember, what those guys wore in England or in a base camp in France, was totally different from what they wore on operations. 3 different impressions, which look wrong when portrayed at the same time. When you're in combat gear, you are nowhere NEAR a garrison cap, for example.

I'm not trying to bash your group for the sake of bashing, but I've seen too many mediocre (airborne) groups that do not look anything like a unit. I must have lost my patience somewhere along the road - let's try to collect as much information as we can on the subject so that you have a good base to build on.

First important thing would be understanding the difference between class A, B, C and D. As soon as you understand that uniform class system, it will be much easier to understand my whole point.

Cheers

Edited by Sheikh Al Stranghi, 26 January 2011 - 04:34 PM.


#70 poch

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 10:14 PM

@Daniel: Nice photographs!

@ Vik: Posting photographs of medics does not prove a thing about the 194th. You still really need to consider when the photographs were taken, and what the men in the photograph were doing. It's hard to judge sources. The M41 jacket photo does not prove that during varsity people were walking around "normandy style". The reactions you posted on the flopping chincups and pocket patches do not prove a thing either because I do not see chincups nor pocket patches in either photo. I know a number of men were parachute trained in the 194th but that does not mean a lot of parachutist's equipment was used, nor should it be the standard. On the wearing of wool shirts: The photo you posted was taken in the field, where such things can be done, weather permitting. The reenacted photos are in a camp setting though. You'd be out of uniform, which is not permissable in a base camp. I do not see evidence for the common use of PT shirts either. Two officers in leather jackets on a photograph dated september 1945(!) does not prove a thing about wartime use of leather jackets (of a different type than shown) either. Post war garrison\camp photographs cant be used as a proper source for combat operations.

You guys need more standardization, and a theme to what you are doing. If you would start by:
First, choose several dates. For example , 24-27 march 1945 for a combat\field impression, and for camp impressions, for example England summer 1944. Keep the two separated. Then, set a standard for all time periods, as for what to wear, and make a list of permissable exceptions with a little background info. For each period and location, see if you can find some primary sources like veterans reports and photographs. Don't fall for the "I've seen a photo labelled 17th AB showing so-and-so, so we can do this as well" trap.

Remember you're a unit, a company, platoon even, and not a bunch of thrown-together exceptions. Remember the context.
Also remember, what those guys wore in England or in a base camp in France, was totally different from what they wore on operations. 3 different impressions, which look wrong when portrayed at the same time. When you're in combat gear, you are nowhere NEAR a garrison cap, for example.

I'm not trying to bash your group for the sake of bashing, but I've seen too many mediocre (airborne) groups that do not look anything like a unit. I must have lost my patience somewhere along the road - let's try to collect as much information as we can on the subject so that you have a good base to build on.

First important thing would be understanding the difference between class A, B, C and D. As soon as you understand that uniform class system, it will be much easier to understand my whole point.

Cheers


To Sheikh: You started to criticise us but you didnīt know any information about our photos. We posted photos from different meetings with different impresions. I am sorry but I donīt want to waste my time talking with you if you donīt accept period photos as a proof.

Edited by poch, 26 January 2011 - 10:15 PM.


#71 Sheikh Al Stranghi

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 03:03 AM

You really don't get it.

#72 Shiftyfreak

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:41 AM

Remember you're a unit, a company, platoon even, and not a bunch of thrown-together exceptions. Remember the context.

As I said before, this is precise what I meant. This is just something you see way to often.


To Sheikh: You started to criticise us but you didnīt know any information about our photos. We posted photos from different meetings with different impresions. I am sorry but I donīt want to waste my time talking with you if you donīt accept period photos as a proof.


So when someone is just criticize about something and trying to make the people aware about it and in a way so people can get a better impression, you just want to be like everyone else: Its just a hobby, I don't care what your talking about or I have seen photo's.. this is precise the thing why re-enactment these days cant be done on a serious high standard and I personally get quite sick of people cause or your trying to get something good or your not doing it at all cause doing it half ways then your just one of the Saving Private Ryan guys that think, I have seen that 2 times and I know everything.

So be a men and don't push the criticism away but do something with it and find out if he is right or not.

Edited by Shiftyfreak, 27 January 2011 - 04:42 AM.


#73 Vik

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 08:50 AM

Sry abouth flopping chincups and pocket patches. Itīs my mistake...
I mean sleeve patches & swivel bail. Translation error.

Everything else is right.

#74 DaggerDan

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:35 AM

Hi, 

are your group still active?
I am currently living in Prague and would like to try reenacting as a hobby.

Could you kindly tell me more about your group and if you accept new (Non czech speaking) members?

Thanks.




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