Troy13 Posted August 11, 2007 Share #1 Posted August 11, 2007 I figured I would finally get to posting here. I was given this and would like to know what others thought about it (U.S. collecting is not a strong point for me), and if I could find out any information about it. I posted it on the other forum I belong to, but the U.S. section is pretty much dead in the water, so I was directed to come here and give it a shot. (I really like what I see). I believe this is a Ike for a member of the 82nd that was attached to the 463rd PFA. The white handkercheif that is bloused out of the jacket was in the pocket. (I assumed that it was worn bloused out over the jacket, so that is how I dispalyed it). On to the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share #2 Posted August 11, 2007 The braid on the left shoulder does bother me. It has the colors of the French Fourragére, but dosen't look like any I have ever seen???? Jump oval Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted August 11, 2007 82nd patch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share #4 Posted August 11, 2007 Overseas bars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted August 11, 2007 Inside where bars are attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share #6 Posted August 11, 2007 QM tag Writing inside jacket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share #7 Posted August 11, 2007 This is where the braid attached to the shoulder. I do have questions to exactly what this braid is???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share #8 Posted August 11, 2007 Finally, the wings. These came with the jacket. The clasp is broken, but I still like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted August 11, 2007 Ran out of space...sorry for one more pic. Again, any information and opinions are wanted. Thanks for looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIl Sanow Posted August 12, 2007 Share #10 Posted August 12, 2007 Ran out of space...sorry for one more pic. Again, any information and opinions are wanted. Thanks for looking. I believe the fourragiere is Belgian, not French. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 12, 2007 Author Share #11 Posted August 12, 2007 Thanks Gil. I think I am about to take it off of the uniform. Every pic I can find, the Fourragère has three cords terminated with a knot and a metal tag. I don't exaclty know what this is or what happened to this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duarte1223 Posted August 12, 2007 Share #12 Posted August 12, 2007 Looks like a nice jacket! I couldn't help but notice your avatar. I'm a pretty serious 5th division collector, are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkyasundevil Posted August 12, 2007 Share #13 Posted August 12, 2007 Thanks Gil. I think I am about to take it off of the uniform. Every pic I can find, the Fourragère has three cords terminated with a knot and a metal tag. I don't exaclty know what this is or what happened to this one. Don't remove the cord. It goes with the uniform. It is the Belgian Foureguerre. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QED4 Posted August 12, 2007 Share #14 Posted August 12, 2007 Field Artillery Battalions of the US Army by Sawicki states that the 463rd was first attached to and then assigned to the 101st A/B Div and makes no mention of it ever being connected with the 82nd. Also I can find no reference to 463rd using that oval during WWII. The Fourragere should have the metal tip hanging in the front weather Belgian or French. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 12, 2007 Author Share #15 Posted August 12, 2007 Looks like a nice jacket! I couldn't help but notice your avatar. I'm a pretty serious 5th division collector, are you? Thanks Adam. I have thought about starting to look for some items. My wife's grandfather served with the 5th in the 21st FAB. We have some pictures from him and the his booklet like my avatar from Metz. I found another complete one frame. I did pick up the Pass In Review not to long ago along with a jacket and 3 shirts that I hope to have a mannequin for soon. I would like to see your items. Let me know where they are posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 12, 2007 Author Share #16 Posted August 12, 2007 Field Artillery Battalions of the US Army by Sawicki states that the 463rd was first attached to and then assigned to the 101st A/B Div and makes no mention of it ever being connected with the 82nd. Also I can find no reference to 463rd using that oval during WWII. The Fourragere should have the metal tip hanging in the front weather Belgian or French. QED4 I got it wrong. I was going off of my memory and that was my first mistake. I had originally thought that the oval was that of the 88th GIR. I was simply going off of a picture of many ovals and a description of them by colors. When I posted this on the other forum, I was told that the following: "Actually, that oval is for the 464 PFA of the 17th ABD. Many of the 17th guys got transfered to the 82nd for occupation duty." I apologize for the confusion. As for the "Fourragere", if it is not correct does it detract from the uniform? I do take my displays to schools and do a show and tell with the kids and I like to be as authentic as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bank Vault Posted August 12, 2007 Share #17 Posted August 12, 2007 I like the jacket, especially the wings on the jacket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIKyle Posted August 12, 2007 Share #18 Posted August 12, 2007 I have run into and have owned uniforms with similar forageres. Some have two loops plus the stem with a brass tip, some just have the stem with the brass tip, then some are like this. Don't know the reason, but they are out there- I would say leave it on unless you find a picture of the guy wearing that jacket which proves otherwise. Everything else looks good to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder505 Posted August 12, 2007 Share #19 Posted August 12, 2007 I agree with the above. I have seen Fourrageres just like this one. I have several groups where 17th vets went to the 82nd in occupation. So I would not mess with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 12, 2007 Author Share #20 Posted August 12, 2007 Thanks to all that have replied. I only ask because I do not want to display these items incorrectly or misrepresent them to those that I talk to. I have a great respect for those that have served our country and that are serving today. Again, thanks. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcel504 Posted August 13, 2007 Share #21 Posted August 13, 2007 Nice jacket. The Fourrageres is correct. See my jacket. I have had it directly from the family. Marcel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcel504 Posted August 13, 2007 Share #22 Posted August 13, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Jack Posted August 13, 2007 Share #23 Posted August 13, 2007 Off the top of my head, I believe the variations of the shoulder cords are as a result of the number of times a unit has been rendered the award. I believe the progression was: Cord only: first award Cord with single "whistle": second award Cord with single "whistle" and single cord outside sleeve: third award Cord with single "whistle" and two cords outside sleeve: fourth award I'll see what I can do about finding the specific regulations. Jack Angolia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted August 13, 2007 Share #24 Posted August 13, 2007 Off the top of my head, I believe the variations of the shoulder cords are as a result of the number of times a unit has been rendered the award. I believe the progression was: Cord only: first award Cord with single "whistle": second award Cord with single "whistle" and single cord outside sleeve: third award Cord with single "whistle" and two cords outside sleeve: fourth award I'll see what I can do about finding the specific regulations. Jack Angolia Actually, the Belgian fourragere that is shown on the uniform has had the finial cut off. Any GI who has ever had to wear a fourragere will be able to see what a pain (literally) those brass tips are. You can't run in the uniform as the tip will whip you as you run. It is VERY common to see the tips removed from 82nd A/B uniforms that were worn during the occupation. As for Jack's "progression" of the cords- it is conjecture and not fact based. The French and Belgian requirements for award of the fourragere are quite similar. The French require a unit to have been awarded the Croix de Guerre in order for the fourragere to be awarded. The Belgians require that the units be cited in the Belgian Army's Orders of the Day. Interestingly enough, the Belgians made awards of their fourragere to deserving units and then had to go back in 1950 and post them to the orders of the day. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about the history of the fourragere. You'll not that the tip is not a whistle, but a representation of a nail and the fourragere itself, a hangman's noose. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourrag%C3%A8re The Fourragère was instituted by Napoleon I, Emperor of the French, but actually has prior historic significance: after a hasty retreat from battle by a unit of Flemish troops, the Duke of Alba ordered that any further misconduct in that unit be punished by hanging, regardless of rank. Those Flemish troops then wore a cord tied into a hangman's noose on their shoulder going into their next battle, and fought so valiantly that the cord became a mark of distinction. The fourragère is awarded to all members of military unit which, as a whole, was awarded a mention in dispatches. It should not be confused with unit awards of particular decorations, where the medal itself is hung on the flag of the unit. For example, there are many units wearing the fourragère of the médaille militaire, whereas only six units wore the medal on their flags. During the First World War, the French Ministry of War awarded the Fourragère to units which distinguished themselves more than once in the orders of the Army. There were then six fourragères, depending on the numbers of mentions in Dispatches awarded to the unit.... Allan aka He who must not be named. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy13 Posted August 13, 2007 Author Share #25 Posted August 13, 2007 Again thanks to everyone! The information is wonderful. Great pic Marcel. That is what I was looking for. One question to Marcel or anyone....In this pic, the brass is on the lower part of the lapel and on my uniform the brass is located on the upper portion. Why the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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