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Josten wings question


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#26 rustywings

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:57 PM

Dave......thats the complete list...........no Combat Observer, no Tech Observer, nor any of the Lettered or other Specialty wings. The Combat Observer shown is one of those that appeared in the early 80s(?)....it is in fact a very well known NS Meyer pattern badge. The Tech Obs is of the same vein, once more a known Meyer pattern badge marked to Josten..........not correct.

In my short time of collecting I never once saw a Josten wing badge marked in the center....always lower right corner and usually at an angle. And never deeply pressed........some reserve was used in marking these badges.

My opinions only...................

Will


Hello Will,
Thank you for stirring my collecting juices a bit. You've peaked my interest with several of your statements and I'm hoping you'll elaborate a bit with some examples. I searched through numerous books and a couple of websites but cannot find an example of Meyer's made Observers badge identical to the earlier depicted Josten made Observers badge. Here's a comparison shot of a WWII era NS Meyer-made Observers badge and the Josten example. Was there another Meyer's pattern used for Combat Observer?

Russ

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#27 rustywings

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:02 PM

Back of the Meyer and Josten made badges.

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#28 rustywings

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:07 PM

I think the Josten pattern is more closely related to the Oberver's badge made by the American Emblem Company.

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#29 rustywings

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:09 PM

Josten compared to AECO.

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#30 pfrost

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:55 PM

Josten compared to AECO.


Here is an observer wing that is very close to the Josten one shown by Russ. It has the same pin and catch as well, it seems.

Not hallmarked, but not an NS Meyer-made wing IMHO. An unknown maker, but as I said, more similar to the Josten wing than not.

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  • observer2.jpg


#31 pfrost

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:59 PM

Here is an observer wing that is very close to the Josten one shown by Russ. It has the same pin and catch as well, it seems.

Not hallmarked, but not an NS Meyer-made wing IMHO. An unknown maker, but as I said, more similar to the Josten wing than not.


Not an observer wing, but an early NS Meyer made pilot wing in the similar pattern as the Josten wing. But, note the pin and catch (and especially the hinge area) are different from the Meyer and Josten wings. The Meyer wing's pins tend to be thinner compared to the thick Josten pins.

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  • pilot_meyer2.jpg


#32 rustywings

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 10:10 PM

Will, with all respect, are you saying this Josten made Pilot badge was made in the 1980's by Meyer's because the hallmark is stamped in the center? Could I sway your opinion Sir if I told you I bought this badge in the late 1960's? Here's a Meyer/Josten comparison.

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#33 rustywings

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 10:14 PM

Back of the Meyer/Josten Pilot badges.

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#34 mshaw

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 04:56 AM

Back of the Meyer/Josten Pilot badges.


Russ:

I have a pinback Josten pilot wing in my collection EXACTLY like your's, including Josten mark in the middle. It's a heavy badge like all Josten badges. I am certain that is is authentic. If it is not authentic, nothing in my collection is authentic.

#35 Paul S

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:44 PM

Just to add a bit more fuel to this fire...here is a comparison of a marked Josten pilot wing with one of the Slick backs. To my eye, they are the same front die.

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#36 Paul S

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:51 PM

And furthermore, the problems with giving too much credence to an attribution of a given wing just because it is found in a certain box notwithstanding, I've seen several of these same design Slick back wings offered from original estates that were still in a box and labeled in the same manner as that used by Balfour during WWII.

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#37 John Cooper

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:08 PM

Dave......thats the complete list...........no Combat Observer, no Tech Observer, nor any of the Lettered or other Specialty wings. The Combat Observer shown is one of those that appeared in the early 80s(?)....it is in fact a very well known NS Meyer pattern badge. The Tech Obs is of the same vein, once more a known Meyer pattern badge marked to Josten..........not correct.

In my short time of collecting I never once saw a Josten wing badge marked in the center....always lower right corner and usually at an angle. And never deeply pressed........some reserve was used in marking these badges.

My opinions only...................

Will



Will Thanks for posting your thoughts and experience on this interesting topic. I hope you continue to share your experience with the rest of us here in the wing section. Your comments seems to have sparked and interesting discussion.

I hope to have the time Friday to take some photos of the pattern in question and that of the meyer pattern of which I am lucky enough to have a few variations which may help further this discussion.

Regards to all.
John

Edited by John Cooper, 02 September 2010 - 09:09 PM.


#38 John Cooper

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:02 PM

Hello Will,
Thank you for stirring my collecting juices a bit. You've peaked my interest with several of your statements and I'm hoping you'll elaborate a bit with some examples. I searched through numerous books and a couple of websites but cannot find an example of Meyer's made Observers badge identical to the earlier depicted Josten made Observers badge. Here's a comparison shot of a WWII era NS Meyer-made Observers badge and the Josten example. Was there another Meyer's pattern used for Combat Observer?

Russ


Russ after seeing your comparison shot I wanted to do one as well to dd some more photos to the discussion. I have placed the Meyer wings at the top with the pattern similar to Josten's (maybe the same?) but unmarked.

Thoughts?


observers.jpg

#39 John Cooper

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:06 PM

Here is the reverse shot.

observers1.jpg

#40 John Cooper

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:16 PM

Now just to add one more similar Meyer style pattern into the mix...

observers2.jpg

#41 John Cooper

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:16 PM

Reverse...

observers3.jpg

#42 rustywings

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:27 AM

Hello Will,

 

Now that you're active again in the wing section of the Forum, I thought I'd bump this old thread to the top for your review...and possible response?

 

Russ



#43 wartimecollectables.com

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 01:51 PM

Center wing mark is fine, but note the style of the marking.

 

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#44 littlewilly

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 10:48 AM

Hi Guys!

 

I am not a collector of WWII wings.  My only area of interest is WWI.  I have had in my possession for many years a really nice WWII Josten senior pilot wing.  I always presumed that it was manufactured in my home town, Princeton, Illinois, where a Josten plant existed for many years.  I recently wrote the Josten's headquarters in Minneapolis, Minn. and asked them if their old Princeton facility was a point of manufacture of these during WWII.  They could not answer that question, but referred me to their MTM subsidiary in the old plant at Princeton for help.  My sister-in-law worked for the Josten plant for several years before it's conversion to MTM, where she continues working to this day.  I asked her for help in solving the mystery, which she and a few friends at the plant were more than happy to help with the investigation.  Just heard from her today.  Sadly, there was no information anywhere in their files or photos to show that these wings were made in Princeton.  Would any of you wing collectors have any information on where these things were made during the war?   I was planning on donating the wing to the local museum if it was from Princeton, as they do not have an example in their military displays.  Thanking you all in advance for your help.   MHJ 



#45 pfrost

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:46 AM

This may give you some insight?

 

http://www.fundingun...ns-inc-history/



#46 littlewilly

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:07 AM

pfrost:

 

Thanks for the history info.  I now know a lot more about the Josten company than I had before.   MHJ



#47 5thwingmarty

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 12:59 PM

I finally picked up a Josten observer wing so I thought I would add a couple photos.  I have had some Josten-pattern observers, but no hallmarked ones until now so here is the family.

 

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  • Jostens fronts-r2.JPG


#48 5thwingmarty

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 01:05 PM

And here are the backs.  The slick back wing with the brass pin is much more vaulted than the others.  It is also the heaviest of the five at almost 27 grams.  The other three pin-back wings are each 25 grams, and the clutch back wing is only about 17 grams.  The wings have the same span, its my photo that makes them look different.

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  • Jostens rears-r2.JPG


#49 5thwingmarty

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 01:28 PM

Also, to compare similar wings from different makers, here are AECo (top), Josten (middle) and Meyer-pattern observers.  There are similarities and differences between them all. 

 

The Josten and Meyer wings have slightly domed centers (the horizontally lined section that protrudes out from the bordering circle.  The AECo center is flat with the lined section recessed behind the edge circle.

The Josten and Meyer have similar wing feather details, but the Josten's are more fine individual angled lines while the Meyer has less defined lines.  The AECo has much less feather detail.

The AEC and Meyer wings have less defined inner feathers.  The Josten wing's are much sharper and extend further up.

The AECo and Meyer have a scalloped bottom edge, the Josten has a very smooth bottom edge.

The AECo and Josten wngs have similar shoulder feather details, but they are much less distinct on the Josten.  The Meyer shoulder details are completely different.

The Meyer's wing feather extend much lower than the bottom edge of the observer center compared to the other two.

The AECo and Meyer wings have feathers next to the observer center that do not extend to the bottom edge of the wings, looking like they are overlapping the feathers that do.  The Josten wing does not have these overlapping feathers.

 

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  • Three fronts r1.JPG


#50 5thwingmarty

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 01:31 PM

And here are the backs.  The scalloped bottom edges of the Meyer and AECo wings are easier to see on the backs.

 

The shoulder feathers on the Meyer extend much further out towards the wing tops than on the other two.

 

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  • Three rears r1.JPG



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