A QUESTION OF MORALS

[none]

I would contact the nearest Synagogdue and ask to speak to the Rabbi. Explain to him about the bone. I am sure he will help you. Their are many Jewish laws concerning remains and I would want to see the bone handled in the proper manor. The Synagogdue may even have a Jewish cemetery nearby.

 

Placement of this bone in a museum would not honor the Jewish community or the person that lived. Jewish practices are grounded in the unshakable belief

in the sanctity of human life, the dignity of the person, and the emotional and spiritual needs of the mourners.

 

If you need help contacting a Rabbi - e-Mail me directly at [email protected] and I will help you. Please provide a phone number.

[currahee506]

I met with a WWII veteran today, who was an officer in the 42nd Infantry Division. He was present when they liberated the Dachau Concentration Camp, in 1945. I spent the better part of two hours talking with this man, who was quite willing to share his combat experiences. After being downstairs with him for an hour and a half, he stands up and says, "Well, let me go get 'your things' that you came for." He left the living room, and went upstairs. A few moments later he came down stairs with a small canvas bag of "relics". I was delighted to see a great looking German M40 combat helmet that had some of the most brutal combat damage that I have seen. This, along with a battle damaged German flash light, which had a hole just the right size for an M1 round, was recovered along the Siegfried Line. The helmet he remembered clearly that it came from a German "Pill Box" - He proceded to tell me that somewhere there is another german helmet that he had sent home, but he thinks his son got that one. This made me quite depressed - lol.

 

This would make any WWII collector quite happy, but here is the real "hum-dinger". He hands me a small blue and white checkered box, the size of a harmonica box. Somewhat puzzled as to what it was, I looked closer at what I had. Written in pencil on the top of the box was - "Dachau". Intrigued, I removed the lid. I found wrapped in old parchment two pieces of carbonized human bone. He went on to explain that he had retrieved them from the crematorium. He believed that no one at home would ever believe the things that he had seen, and wanted to bring this home to prove to people what had happened there. He thought that the Holocaust would never be what it is today.

 

I walked away with the helmet and the flash light. I told him to hold on to the Dachau souvinir until I returned for some of his U.S. stuff. (Which he was still in the process of finding) Call me what you may, but I honestly do not feel creepy about owning such a relic. I actually think that it is very humbling to own such a piece. I was just wondering what the collecting community feels about such a find. Should I retrieve it when I return? Here are some of my thoughts:

 

I am aware that some people will say that it is somehthing that ought to be buried. Would this not be destroying a piece of history?? Places like the Museum of Natural History have skeletal remains for the sake of science. Why not for the sake of history, and posterity?

 

Some may say that they should be turned over to a Synagogue. Who's to say that this person was a Jew? Only 1/3 of the population of Dachau were Jewish, so the odd's are actually not in favor.

 

Basically, I have no problem with owning them, but I wanted to poll the collecting community about the issues of ethics, and what the law says about owning such a relic.

 

So... were you meeting with this Veteran to interview him, or was it just about getting 'stuff.' Seems to be some details missing here.

 

Please do not post pictures of the carbonized bones.

 

Thoughts? Send the to the Holocaust Memorial in D.C. Need a contact? I can get you one.

 

Rich

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will post pictures tonight of what I have retrieved so far.

 

Chris

[Brig]

Eh no, Brig, the collector (not a Veteran) found it on the former battlefield near Ypres, Belgium.

According to him, it belonged to a British soldier.

 

Erwin

 

and took it as a collectible? see, that's a lot different than a souveneir...

 

wow, just reread my comment. True, but harsh. I had about 15 beers and a few shots in me, haha. Sorry

[Jeeper704]

Yes, he found it together with some other stuff (buttons, shrapnel etc).

And he took it home as a souvenir.

If he had kept the boot and buried the foot, that would be ok in my eyes, but this is just gruesome.

 

Is ok, Brig, I took no offence or so.

I understand what you were trying to say.

 

Erwin

[Dave]

I'd send the bones to the US Holocaust Museum for their disposal of the items. It's probably one of the best museums I've ever been in - it is exceedingly powerful, and each time I go there (3 times now) I see it in a whole new light. Their goal is to educate people so they can stop that sort of holocaust/genocide in the future, and they do a remarkable job at it.

 

As for creepy stuff, my in-laws have a piece of "artwork" on the wall of their house. I thought it was just some odd metalwork, until I asked my mother-in-law what it was. Turns out that it's a sculpture made out of the iron bars taken from the INSIDE of the ovens at Dachau! I quickly informed her that I have no plans on inherting that if something ever happens to them! She didn't see any problem with it though, but saw it more as a memorial and tribute to the people who suffered in the camp... I guess it all depends on your perspective!

 

Dave

[Brig]

In 1995 while I was in the 82nd Airborne, we were sent on a "good will" trip to train and explore Germany with German Paratroopers. One of the places we visited was Dachau. To this day I will never forget it, an older man saw us walking in our BDU's and maroon barets and asked us if we would like to have a personal tour of the camp. Of course, we accepted, and it was a fantastic tour, I learned things that only people who once were interned there could have known. When it was over I asked the Gentleman how he knew so much about the camp..." I was here" is all he said, and he walked off after shaking our hands and wishing as a long life and asking to please NEVER forget what he showed us. This man will never be forgotten by me and I still have his picture, God only knows how much I wish I got his name but at the time it just was not one of my questions. Anyway...I think these remains need to be returned to Dachau, the museum there is FANTASTIC, and I am sure they would know the best place for these remains. Just my two cents!

 

Wade

 

when I was in Baghdad, there was a KBR worker who used to be a Master Sergeant in the Army. he told me he was at Dachau or Aushwitz back when he was in the Army, looking at the ovens (his wife wouldn't look at them) when an old man came in and said "I remember this place. it was horrible" and when the Master Sergeant looked away then back at him, he was gone. not sure if the man was real or an apparition...creepy

[1st AAA Group]

One of my Uncles served in the PTO as an infantryman. Re enlisting at the end of the war he was shipped to Germany and assigned to the US Constabulary in Munich. One of his assignments was as security at the Malmedy trials in Dachau. I always thought it was fitting the trial was held at that Concentration Camp.

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

...I don't believe that Holocaust relics belong in any militaria collection, much less human remains from one of the camps.

 

Greg

 

 

Could not agree more. I passed up about 100 private photos taken at a Death Camp that were for sale (and very, very cheap) at an antique shop many years ago . The photos included shots of SS officers happily smiling while standing around the remains of prisoners bodies. My first thought was that I could make a fortune in profit from them by selling to a "collector" of those items. However, my conscience quickly made me feel ashamed for thinking about the profit to be made from the blood of others . Needless to say, I passed on them.

 

Everyone must choose for themselves where to draw the line, but I must confess that many of those who collect death camp and SS items seem to have a skewed perspective about the "why" of the camps. In fact I know of one "big name" on another forum who collects camp items, and it is obvious that he has NSDAP leanings by comments made in his postings. Personally, I would not want the bones, and let the vet decide what to do with them. He could easily turn them over anonymously to a Jewish or holocaust organization for proper burial.

 

I don't think that just because an institution is labeled as a "Museum", that somehow gives them the right to disrepect the bones/remains of murdered victims for everyone to gawk at.

[rrobertscv]

My uncle went through Dachau sometimes after the liberation. I have a couple of pictures he took of the front gate, and one of people behind the wire. He also brought back, what it probably the most unique item I have. It is a mass grave marker that was made insode the prison. I don't think it was ever used, he must have picked it up wherever they kept them. My wife doesn't like it, she says it just seems evil to her, but to me it is some proof that the things that people question today, really did happen 60 years ago. I will post a photo of it, if people would like to see it, and it is not breaking any forum rules. The only other ones I have seen like it were in photos that the museum at Auschwitz emailed me.

[Dave]

I don't think that just because an institution is labeled as a "Museum", that somehow gives them the right to disrepect the bones/remains of murdered victims for everyone to gawk at.

 

I have to hop in here to defend the Holocaust Museum. The museum is a great museum of The Holocaust, probably one of the best in the world. More importantly though, it is a learning center with the primary purpose of preventing this kind of genocide in the future. I have been through their absolutely exeptional course in the role of a military officer in genocide prevention and I can tell you that it is first rate.... This isn't the kind of place where "Joe random tourist" comes through just to "gawk" but is a center that really brings home what we can do to prevent this sort of thing in the future.

 

Dave

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

I have to hop in here to defend the Holocaust Museum. The museum is a great museum of The Holocaust, probably one of the best in the world. More importantly though, it is a learning center with the primary purpose of preventing this kind of genocide in the future. I have been through their absolutely exeptional course in the role of a military officer in genocide prevention and I can tell you that it is first rate.... This isn't the kind of place where "Joe random tourist" comes through just to "gawk" but is a center that really brings home what we can do to prevent this sort of thing in the future.

 

Dave

 

 

Hi Dave,

 

My comments weren't aimed at any instution in particular. I just don't see the point of showing actual human matter to demonstrate a point. I am so repulsed by the footage taken at camps, that I will not watch it more than once. I just have a real problem in general with putting any remains on display, or being used to teach about that period in particular. It just really bothers me as it seems to lessen that individuals worth as a human. On a side note, when the exhibit featuring human bodies sliced thinly from head to toe was at the Houston Museum of Natural Science, I could not bring myself to go see it for the same reasons. Anyhow, its just a matter of differing perspective, thats all.

[ww2vault]

Hi Dave,

 

My comments weren't aimed at any instution in particular. I just don't see the point of showing actual human matter to demonstrate a point. I am so repulsed by the footage taken at camps, that I will not watch it more than once. I just have a real problem in general with putting any remains on display, or being used to teach about that period in particular. It just really bothers me as it seems to lessen that individuals worth as a human. On a side note, when the exhibit featuring human bodies sliced thinly from head to toe was at the Houston Museum of Natural Science, I could not bring myself to go see it for the same reasons. Anyhow, its just a matter of differing perspective, thats all.

 

Ohhhh yeah, I remember that traveling "Human Body" exhibit that toured the country. In fact in the recent James Bond movie, Casino Royal at the beginning it shows him and another guy fighting inside the exhibit with a knife. I could never go to that, real human bodies and tissue and muscles, blah.

 

I would have to agree with Imperial, I don't think it is right to display actual human remains but I am all for the footage of the camps. The footage is extremely necessary to help people visualize what it was really like. We humans are visual creatures so the footage will hit home.

 

- Jeff

[Jason G]

I, personally like the idea of contacting a rabbi and explaining the entire story. If that wasn't possible, then I'd go with the Holocaust Museum. I'm not squeeemish...but that's a little too much bad karma for me to have in my house.....the wife says with all the military stuff I have already, she's convinced we are haunted now..LOL.

 

That's just not something I'd really feel right keeping. Kinda like keeping murder victims bones.

[VAWARMEMORIAL]

I, personally like the idea of contacting a rabbi and explaining the entire story. If that wasn't possible, then I'd go with the Holocaust Museum. I'm not squeeemish...but that's a little too much bad karma for me to have in my house.....the wife says with all the military stuff I have already, she's convinced we are haunted now..LOL.

 

That's just not something I'd really feel right keeping. Kinda like keeping murder victims bones.

 

I am an artifacts manager and I think that technically they are illegal to possess even by a memorial or museum because they are human remains removed essentially from a crime scene. Just my thoughts.