A QUESTION OF MORALS

[cpatrick]

I met with a WWII veteran today, who was an officer in the 42nd Infantry Division. He was present when they liberated the Dachau Concentration Camp, in 1945. I spent the better part of two hours talking with this man, who was quite willing to share his combat experiences. After being downstairs with him for an hour and a half, he stands up and says, "Well, let me go get 'your things' that you came for." He left the living room, and went upstairs. A few moments later he came down stairs with a small canvas bag of "relics". I was delighted to see a great looking German M40 combat helmet that had some of the most brutal combat damage that I have seen. This, along with a battle damaged German flash light, which had a hole just the right size for an M1 round, was recovered along the Siegfried Line. The helmet he remembered clearly that it came from a German "Pill Box" - He proceded to tell me that somewhere there is another german helmet that he had sent home, but he thinks his son got that one. This made me quite depressed - lol.

 

This would make any WWII collector quite happy, but here is the real "hum-dinger". He hands me a small blue and white checkered box, the size of a harmonica box. Somewhat puzzled as to what it was, I looked closer at what I had. Written in pencil on the top of the box was - "Dachau". Intrigued, I removed the lid. I found wrapped in old parchment two pieces of carbonized human bone. He went on to explain that he had retrieved them from the crematorium. He believed that no one at home would ever believe the things that he had seen, and wanted to bring this home to prove to people what had happened there. He thought that the Holocaust would never be what it is today.

 

I walked away with the helmet and the flash light. I told him to hold on to the Dachau souvinir until I returned for some of his U.S. stuff. (Which he was still in the process of finding) Call me what you may, but I honestly do not feel creepy about owning such a relic. I actually think that it is very humbling to own such a piece. I was just wondering what the collecting community feels about such a find. Should I retrieve it when I return? Here are some of my thoughts:

 

I am aware that some people will say that it is somehthing that ought to be buried. Would this not be destroying a piece of history?? Places like the Museum of Natural History have skeletal remains for the sake of science. Why not for the sake of history, and posterity?

 

Some may say that they should be turned over to a Synagogue. Who's to say that this person was a Jew? Only 1/3 of the population of Dachau were Jewish, so the odd's are actually not in favor.

 

Basically, I have no problem with owning them, but I wanted to poll the collecting community about the issues of ethics, and what the law says about owning such a relic.

 

I will post pictures tonight of what I have retrieved so far.

 

Chris

[Bob Hudson]

I would relieve the old gentleman of the burden of being keeper of that box and then I'd send it to the Holocaust Museum - http://www.ushmm.org - along with an explanation of where it came from and I'd ask that they use their resources to make the best disposition of it.

 

I don't think the old soldier would feel good about throwing it in the trash and you would do him a real service in making sure it gets to someone who can give it a proper burial.

[CNY Militaria]

His intention was to prove what the Holocaust was about, so I would make sure that goal gets fufilled.

 

I am not big on giving things to museums, and I can only imagine that the Holocaust museum would put it in a warehouse like most museums. Is there a local museum in the area that it could go to? A small museum is more likely to display things such as this. Where is this vet from?

[Brig]

there's a smaller Holocaust Museum in Richmond, Virginia, besides the one in DC, I do believe. I see the sign off I-95 whenever I drive home, but haven't gotten a chance to stop

 

that's definately not a collectible, it's something that needs to be shared to enlighten people about history, not a trophy to sit on a shelf

[Bob Hudson]

His intention was to prove what the Holocaust was about, so I would make sure that goal gets fufilled.

 

I am not big on giving things to museums, and I can only imagine that the Holocaust museum would put it in a warehouse like most museums. Is there a local museum in the area that it could go to? A small museum is more likely to display things such as this. Where is this vet from?

 

The "problem" is these are human remains and they must be interred: a local museum will be way out of their league in handling something such as this. The Holocaust Museum is the one place that has the know how to make these are handled with dignity and within the law.

[BEAST]

Indiana also has a Holocaust museum approximately 1 hour from my house. I can look into it if you are interested.

 

As an individual, what would you do with them? If you want to use them for a display. how would do you display them? I have been to Auschwitz and seen the displays there. They have toys of the children and the hair that was cut off of victims. These were powerful displays. How would you use yours to teach others?

[cpatrick]

Thank's everyone for the comments so far! Here are pics of the M1940. This one was made by Quist, of Esslington, Germany. This guy had a very, very bad day.

 

The flashlight is a Daimon, a pretty common model.

 

I will use this thread to add the updates when I get them, so keep watching. (These were his trophies - his US stuff will follow)

 

Chris

[Greg Robinson]

I would relieve the old gentleman of the burden of being keeper of that box and then I'd send it to the Holocaust Museum - http://www.ushmm.org - along with an explanation of where it came from and I'd ask that they use their resources to make the best disposition of it.

 

I don't think the old soldier would feel good about throwing it in the trash and you would do him a real service in making sure it gets to someone who can give it a proper burial.

 

YES...I totally agree. They'd know what the proper and appropriate disposition of those remains would be. I don't believe that Holocaust relics belong in any militaria collection, much less human remains from one of the camps.

 

Greg

[cpatrick]

Thanks Beast - Within the last year I have actually just begun doing public displays. This is part of the reason why I had posted this here, is because I am not sure what to do with them. I would use them in public displays, but I fear that I may be treading on a mine field, if you know what I mean. Is it even legal to have them, or display them?

 

I you guys are interested, I will post them here once I get them. I'll let you know what I do with them once I have some time to think on it. Keep the comments coming - Thanks!!

 

Chris

[cpatrick]

The other two close up's of combat relics of the enemy -

[cpatrick]

Justin,

 

The vet is from Cooperstown.

 

Chris

[CNY Militaria]

I am not sure if this work, but since he is from the upstate NY area, the Safe Haven Museum in Oswego, NY might display these. They deal with the whole Safe Haven experience during the war, as well as the Holocaust in general. That would be a "closer to home" option so that they would remain somewhat local.

 

http://www.oswegohaven.org/

[Bones]

In the state of Nebraska it is illegal to have in your possesion human remains. I used to volunteer in a local museum. A older woman once told me that we had a skull from WW1 in our collection. No one believed her until one day I found the top part of a skull in a box that had been stored for years. Inside the skull cap was a label stating this was part of a German soldier taken on the field of battle and the name of the donor. I contacted some people at the Nebraska Historical Society and we had 2 options. Donate it to the historical society or contact your local County Sheriff. The curator contacted the sheriff and the skull was taken away. I think items like this are collected and then buried at a later date. For this item I think a museum is the place to go. I am sure your state has a similiar law in place.

[JERRY COBB]

I would relieve the old gentleman of the burden of being keeper of that box and then I'd send it to the Holocaust Museum - http://www.ushmm.org - along with an explanation of where it came from and I'd ask that they use their resources to make the best disposition of it.

 

I don't think the old soldier would feel good about throwing it in the trash and you would do him a real service in making sure it gets to someone who can give it a proper burial.

 

 

 

I agree with this suggestion. I feel that these remains should be rendered the dignity of a burial/disposition they deserve. This was period in world history that should be remembered with what the members here collect and share and not with this type of "relic". I am not saying that we should forget the Holocaust, just that it can be remember another way.

[CNY Militaria]

I know the NYS Military Museum has an ARM from a Civil War vet. When he lost it, he kept it with him. He passed it down to his family generation after generation, and its now in a box in the museum. Kind of wierd, but keeping the arm seemed like the thing to do at the time I guess.

[cpatrick]

Justin,

 

That reminds me of the Union's 3rd Corps commander, General Daniel Sickles. He had his leg blown off at Gettysburg. He had the leg placed in a casket, had it donated somewhere, and he visited it every year, till the day he died. Same person?

 

Chris

[Laury Allison]

You may consider discussing this further with the Veteran and express your reservations about possessing such an artifact. I would send an inquiry to some of the museums....possibly even the Infantry School Museum, West Point Museum, etc. You could even say that you are aware of the item (which you are), but it is not currently in your possession (it isn't), and that you may be able to obtain it (also true). You wouldn't necessarilly have to give the Vet's name or any other personal information other than he retreived it from the ovens at Dachau.

 

Give some options to the Vet in your discussion with him and find out what he would like to have happen to the bone.

 

Something to give some thought to.....

 

Laury

[Jim Baker]

You may consider discussing this further with the Veteran and express your reservations about possessing such an artifact. I would send an inquiry to some of the museums....possibly even the Infantry School Museum, West Point Museum, etc. You could even say that you are aware of the item (which you are), but it is not currently in your possession (it isn't), and that you may be able to obtain it (also true). You wouldn't necessarilly have to give the Vet's name or any other personal information other than he retreived it from the ovens at Dachau.

 

Give some options to the Vet in your discussion with him and find out what he would like to have happen to the bone.

 

Something to give some thought to.....

 

Laury

 

 

This is an excellent suggestion. I personally would not have them in my possession. Call it what you will, maybe even bad Karma, but I wouldn't want them.

[Laury Allison]

This is an excellent suggestion. I personally would not have them in my possession. Call it what you will, maybe even bad Karma, but I wouldn't want them.

 

I think the military museums would be a great starting place. The one at Fort Benning or at West Point are bigger ones and they are going to be around. I'm sure the curator of either one of these two have ran across similar situations over the years.

 

Give the Vet a couple of options too. That way if he doesn't like one idea, you've got a spare in your back pocket. Express any concerns that you may have that the item should be handled by someone more qualified to handle these types of items and could display them or preserve them for future generations as well.

 

Let us know how this turns out....very interesting.

 

Laury

[Nkomo]

I collect combat used uniforms and headgear. I have some items that I know the person died while wearing, for me I have no problem owning these items. However, I draw the line at human remains. These really need to given to the National Holocaust Museum and be given the proper burial. I think it is the proper thing to do.

My dad used to work at the local library and met a woman whose husband had been an intelligence officer with the US Army during WW2 and was one of the first US soldiers into Buchenwald. He collected armbands, torture devices, and the like. He brought these home along with numerous German helmets. My dad was given these items for cleaning out the woman's attic. He sold off the German helmets, but kept the Holocaust items. Since he was a high school history teacher, he incorporated a Holocaust presentation into his Global Issues class. It really drove home the subject more than a lecture ever could. My dad is now retired and still does the Holocaust presentation for at least 5 to 10 classes a year at various local schools....all free of charge. My dad even agrees that these fingers deserve a proper burial. Hope this helps.

Arch

[wdphll]

In 1995 while I was in the 82nd Airborne, we were sent on a "good will" trip to train and explore Germany with German Paratroopers. One of the places we visited was Dachau. To this day I will never forget it, an older man saw us walking in our BDU's and maroon barets and asked us if we would like to have a personal tour of the camp. Of course, we accepted, and it was a fantastic tour, I learned things that only people who once were interned there could have known. When it was over I asked the Gentleman how he knew so much about the camp..." I was here" is all he said, and he walked off after shaking our hands and wishing as a long life and asking to please NEVER forget what he showed us. This man will never be forgotten by me and I still have his picture, God only knows how much I wish I got his name but at the time it just was not one of my questions. Anyway...I think these remains need to be returned to Dachau, the museum there is FANTASTIC, and I am sure they would know the best place for these remains. Just my two cents!

 

Wade

[Brig]

good idea, return them to the Dachau museum with the story

[Jeeper704]

That's what I would do too; I'd get in touch with the people in charge at Dachau and explain what I have and ask how to send that back to them.

 

I strongly believe any human remains should be buried properly.

 

Some years ago, I was invited to see a WWI collection. Among the items was a boot with the bones of a foot still in it. Got pretty disgusted by it. I have no problems with boots and any other stuff which comes from a KIA, but I stop when human remains are concerned.

 

Erwin

[Brig]

I won't judge. I know vets who've brought back fingers and ears from Iraq, and I don't real bad for the fallen at all because they tried to kill me, so I know what the vets of WWII must have felt when they brought back that boot

[Jeeper704]

Eh no, Brig, the collector (not a Veteran) found it on the former battlefield near Ypres, Belgium.

According to him, it belonged to a British soldier.

 

Erwin