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Nylon Pistol Belt


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#1 Finnwolf

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 05:55 AM

Hello

In a recent catalog I saw advertised US pistol belts. They are allegedly made of nylon with a vertical weave. There are only two rows of grommets. Did our military ever have such things? The buckle attachment is brass painted black and looks like the traditional metal one.

#2 PvtTamura

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:24 AM

I believe the belt you are talking about is the LC-2 (Load Carrying system-2?) belt. Made of nylon with a vertical weave, I've owned several with the 'Nam style metal closure, I can dig one out if you'd like. :thumbsup:

Reason for edit: Posting pictures

CIMG2943.JPG

http://img843.imageshack.us/i/cimg2944.jpg/

Edited by PvtTamura, 13 August 2010 - 08:31 AM.


#3 Finnwolf

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:48 AM

Thanks for the reply. That looks identical to the ones for sale except for the buckle. Are your other ones the Davis fastener or the traditional M1910 metal hook style?

#4 PvtTamura

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:30 AM

Thanks for the reply. That looks identical to the ones for sale except for the buckle. Are your other ones the Davis fastener or the traditional M1910 metal hook style?



CIMG2945.JPG

Edited by PvtTamura, 13 August 2010 - 09:31 AM.


#5 B229

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:54 AM

Hello

In a recent catalog I saw advertised US pistol belts. They are allegedly made of nylon with a vertical weave. There are only two rows of grommets. Did our military ever have such things? The buckle attachment is brass painted black and looks like the traditional metal one.


This is the standard LC-1 Individual Equipment Belt introduced as part of the ALICE gear in 1972-73.

#6 Finnwolf

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:17 AM

Yes that is exactly the one. Interesting the different variations.

#7 sgtmonroe

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:31 AM

Yes that is exactly the one. Interesting the different variations.

The original M-1972 [with M-1956 "ball and socket" buckle] belt existed until 1975 when it was redesignated LC-1 [no change in the buckle]. In 1976 the belt is redesignated LC-2 with no change in the buckle, the change was to do with the width of the adjustment clamps. In 1979 the Army trialed new buckle designs and as a result the plastic "LC-2" buckle was adopted ca. 1981. Everyone calls it an "LC-2" buckle which is a misnomer as the buckle was adopted after the belt's designation was changed.

During the 1979 trials the DAVIS quick-release buckle was again entered in as a possible replacement for the M-1956 buckle. I have a trial belt with the DAVIS buckle as does Craig...they are just standard LC-2 belts with the DAVIS buckle.

In 1989 the belt buckle was changed to a Fastex quick-release and a new adjustment system was introduced. The LC-2 designation was dropped some time afterwards and the belt then simply became the "BELT, INDIVIDUAL EQUIPMENT".

#8 craig_pickrall

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 04:30 PM

Here are the versions that sgtmonroe mentions.

01_LC_1_PISTOL_BELT_1.jpg
04_LC_2_PISTOL_BELT_1.jpg
06_LC_2_PISTOL_BELT_2.jpg
08_LC_2_PISTOL_BELT_3.jpg
11_BELT_INDIVIDUAL_EQUIPMENT.jpg

#9 B229

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:45 AM

You guys need to add two more variations to the list. When the change to the new Fastex buckle took place there were belts made with the new style adjustment system with the snaps, but utilizing the old style green plastic buckle. I assumed at the time the contractors were just using up their stock of the old buckle. There is also a version of the Fastex buckled belt in Foliage Green to match the ACU's. Why? Because in approx. 2003 TRADOC directed that Drill Sergeants begin wearing a "pistol belt" again as a duty belt to differentiate the DS's from other training cadre. They continue to do this and I have seen it done at Ft. Jackson. It actually looks pretty good with the ACU's.

#10 sgtmonroe

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 01:52 PM

When the change to the new Fastex buckle took place there were belts made with the new style adjustment system with the snaps, but utilizing the old style green plastic buckle. I assumed at the time the contractors were just using up their stock of the old buckle.

MIL-B-43826 Revision C [dated 06 SEP 89] governed the revisions of the individual equipment belt that included the new adjustment system and Fastex buckle. I know of the belt you speak of and have actually seen images of it in a U.S. Army Technical Manual...but...the military specifications have not been revised since C. The contract dates that Craig mentions he has correspond to the changes that are reflected in the Mil-Specs. The last "LC-2" belt was contracted in FY1989 while the first contract for the new belt appeared in FY1991. The belts that have the new adjustment system with the old buckle may have indeed been done by contractors...but it was against specs. The problem with this belt is that I have not seen one contract dated prior to 1991...which can lead to mountains of speculation but as it stands there has been no official document that has surfaced, to date, that states this was a decision made by the U.S. government.

There is also a version of the Fastex buckled belt in Foliage Green to match the ACU's. Why? Because in approx. 2003 TRADOC directed that Drill Sergeants begin wearing a "pistol belt" again as a duty belt to differentiate the DS's from other training cadre. They continue to do this and I have seen it done at Ft. Jackson. It actually looks pretty good with the ACU's.

Again, the MIL-B-43826 military specification series has not been changed since 1989 [long before "foliage green" [or is it "soyent green"?] came about]. There are commerically manufactured "ACU" copies of the belt and I think some well known "high speed low drag" companies make them also. The government has been buying alot of the "Made In Vietnam" stuff and giving it an NSN and issuing it out...so this type of transaction may be the source of these type belts but this is only speculation on my part...my collecting and research ends at 1991. But, again, to sum up, the MIL-B-43826 military specification series has not been revised to include a "foliage green" Class or Type of individual equipment belt or buckle. So they are either purchasing them from somewhere commercially or they are being manufactured under a different military specification not associated with the M-1972/LC-1/LC-2 series of individual equipment belts.

#11 battlerattle

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 07:29 PM

I think you are talking about the alice lc-1 pistol belt.

#12 B229

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:02 AM

MIL-B-43826 Revision C [dated 06 SEP 89] governed the revisions of the individual equipment belt that included the new adjustment system and Fastex buckle. I know of the belt you speak of and have actually seen images of it in a U.S. Army Technical Manual...but...the military specifications have not been revised since C. The contract dates that Craig mentions he has correspond to the changes that are reflected in the Mil-Specs. The last "LC-2" belt was contracted in FY1989 while the first contract for the new belt appeared in FY1991. The belts that have the new adjustment system with the old buckle may have indeed been done by contractors...but it was against specs. The problem with this belt is that I have not seen one contract dated prior to 1991...which can lead to mountains of speculation but as it stands there has been no official document that has surfaced, to date, that states this was a decision made by the U.S. government.

Again, the MIL-B-43826 military specification series has not been changed since 1989 [long before "foliage green" [or is it "soyent green"?] came about]. There are commerically manufactured "ACU" copies of the belt and I think some well known "high speed low drag" companies make them also. The government has been buying alot of the "Made In Vietnam" stuff and giving it an NSN and issuing it out...so this type of transaction may be the source of these type belts but this is only speculation on my part...my collecting and research ends at 1991. But, again, to sum up, the MIL-B-43826 military specification series has not been revised to include a "foliage green" Class or Type of individual equipment belt or buckle. So they are either purchasing them from somewhere commercially or they are being manufactured under a different military specification not associated with the M-1972/LC-1/LC-2 series of individual equipment belts.


SGT Monroe: just saw your reply on this. Thanks for the info. It doesn't surprise me that the specs were never changed and I suspected at the time that the use of the old buckle was something the contractors did and not the government. The "soylent green" belts may very well have been locally procured from commerical sources, as is so often the case now, or they are COTS material that the government adopted as standard without issuing a spec first. So much material is procured outside of the traditional means that it is hard to track were these things originate.

#13 tsellati

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 10:03 AM

Here are the versions that sgtmonroe mentions.

01_LC_1_PISTOL_BELT_1.jpg


This is exactly like the one I have up on auction which is a 1974-dated LC-1 example. I also have seen them referred to as the M1972 pistol belt. Is this as correct a designation as LC-1 or is the latter the only correct designation for this belt?

Tim

#14 B229

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 11:08 AM

This is exactly like the one I have up on auction which is a 1974-dated LC-1 example. I also have seen them referred to as the M1972 pistol belt. Is this as correct a designation as LC-1 or is the latter the only correct designation for this belt?

Tim


See SGT Monroe's comments in post #7 above: "The original M-1972 [with M-1956 "ball and socket" buckle] belt existed until 1975 when it was redesignated LC-1 [no change in the buckle]."

#15 tsellati

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:15 AM

See SGT Monroe's comments in post #7 above: "The original M-1972 [with M-1956 "ball and socket" buckle] belt existed until 1975 when it was redesignated LC-1 [no change in the buckle]."


Ah, thanks for pointing that post out. I missed it in the first go round.

Tim

#16 sgtmonroe

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 07:42 PM

Just to clarify some things. The M-1972 designation was given to all of the components of the later-named ALICE system when it was adopted in January 1973. The system was changed from M-1972 to ALICE sometime in late 1973...possibly around November. The early FY1974 (pre-November 1973) contracted individual equipment belts, small arms ammunition cases, and field pack cargo straps were the only items actually marked "M-1972" on their contract labels during FY1974. After November 1973 (still during FY1974) the LC-1 designation was applied to most all of the components' contracts labels but the M-1972 designation remained on the item's military specifications until 1975 (and even as late as 1976 on some components).

So it comes down to what source one wishes to utilize as far as the designation goes. On paper the ALICE system components were still designated M-1972 until 1975 (with the exception of the canteen cover and first aid pouch which retained their M-1967 designation). But any item contracted after November 1973 has the LC-1 designation printed on the actual component (in most cases...as there are always exceptions to the rule).

Personally the only M-1972 components I actually call "M-1972" are the belts, small arms cases, and cargo straps that are marked as such.


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