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grease gun M3


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#1 solcarlus

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 01:07 PM

Hello

hello.
which is this type of "grease gun m3" find in Normandy?
thank.
regards sol.

dscn1765bi5.jpg

dscn1787fw7.jpg

#2 Gary Cain

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 07:14 PM

That is the M3 Grease Gun, the one with the lever on the side to cock it is the M3A1.


Cheers
Gary

Hello

hello.
which is this type of "grease gun m3" find in Normandy?
thank.
regards sol.

dscn1765bi5.jpg

dscn1787fw7.jpg



#3 Steve B.

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 09:04 PM

Gary-

I think you got it backwards: The M3 had the cocking lever, which was eliminated on the M3A1. See Canfield's Infantry Weapons of WWII book, page 144.

This one has me puzzled since it appears to have a slot near the top of the receiver and what looks like a cocking lever. To the best of my knowledge, the WWII "Grease Guns" did not have this feature.

Steve

#4 solcarlus

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 10:12 PM

Hello.

merci !
regards solcarlus

#5 BC312

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 01:06 AM

This is not standard feature on any Grease gun and must be a field modification by an individual. I have only seen this done on another M3. Would have made life a bit easier to cock and de-cock than the finger in the hole of the breech block. Maybe the GI had a problem with his fingers. The M3A1 wasn't issued until later in the war and wasn't used at the time of Normandy. Your M3 is an M3 as you can see the hole for the cocking leaver is directly under the new modified cocking leaver.

#6 superc53

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 08:21 AM

It most definitely left the factory as an M-3. I have checked my copy of FM 23-41 and TM9-1217 and find no reference to the knob or the slit. This modification is, er, not type approved. [FCC fans will know the terminology.] Making the mod at the very least required some tools. Therefore, assuming it wasn't a stolen weapon modified in a home, the mod was possibly done as a unit ordnance repair after heavy use. I know, that makes no sense. Why not just reissue a new gun or replace the retractor lever assembly or the entire housing assembly? That would certainly be a lot quicker (10 minutes?) than cutting the slit, drilling the bolt, then inserting a cocking handle (at least 40 minutes if skilled). In Normandy there would have been plenty of parts available either on a ship (days 1 and 2, as well as spares just laying around) or in local depots (day 3 on). This leads me to only 2 conclusions. It was an experimental mod/repair of a worn out gun by an ordnance geek (or a very bored soldier with access to tools) then discarded by throwing away (leading to it's being found later), OR it was a totally unauthorized repair by someone who was not legally in possession of the weapon and who therefore did not have access to crates of new 'housing assemblies' and 'retractor levers.' This second option although implying possession by criminals, does not preclude a possession and repair by a member of the resistance. While the Nazis ruled, the possession was illegal, and access to ordnance depots was also non existent. The retractor levers of these things failed or jammed a lot. Thats why the M3a1 was made. We dropped thousands of the M3s in crates over Europe and SE Asia/Philippines by parachute as soon as we could. Picture some resistance gal/guy who learns the hard way the retractor lever jams. [We will ignore the magazine issues for now.] Surviving the encounter they resolve to fix the problem. A friendly and patriotic blacksmith and you have the result. IMO the other option is a stolen gun fixed by a post war crook.

Edited by superc53, 03 August 2007 - 08:27 AM.


#7 BC312

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 12:17 PM

Those bolt are dam hard to drill, take some doing.

#8 guillaume le ouf

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 10:23 PM

hello solcarlus...

I want to stabiloute here!

bye ;)

#9 Carl W.

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 01:47 AM

I saw a very similar dug up M3 on display in the Patton museum in Ettelbruck, Belgium. I'll snoop for some pictures.

Regards
Carl

#10 bfryar44

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 05:50 AM

Here is one wartime photo of a modified M3 carried in the field, so they did exist. Question is who modified them? Most likely a unit armorer.

This picture scan comes from Heimdel's "Cobra the Decisive Battle" page 204. As you can see the normal M3 cocking knob has been removed and the hole is left in place. The new slot is difficult to see but it is there (near the carbine holder's fingers). Photo was taken in Normandy late July or early August 1944.

 

BAR022.jpg~original.jpg


Edited by DesertRatTom, 27 July 2015 - 02:13 PM.
Transfer pictures from off site storage. Drt


#11 bfryar44

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 06:15 AM

Another scan shows a modified M3 displayed on a "Tanker" mannequin.

 

BAR024.jpg~original.jpg

 

Picture from "D-Day From the Beaches of Normandy to the Liberation of France" by Stephen Badsey. Page 222

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  • BAR022.jpg~original.jpg

Edited by DesertRatTom, 27 July 2015 - 02:21 PM.
Transfer pictures from off site storage. Drt


#12 solcarlus

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 09:00 AM

hello men ;)
I thank you for this excellent discussion. With my friends, we follow it with "interesting". http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif
solcarlus

#13 artu44

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 09:29 AM

It most definitely left the factory as an M-3. I have checked my copy of FM 23-41 and TM9-1217 and find no reference to the knob or the slit. This modification is, er, not type approved. [FCC fans will know the terminology.] Making the mod at the very least required some tools. Therefore, assuming it wasn't a stolen weapon modified in a home, the mod was possibly done as a unit ordnance repair after heavy use. I know, that makes no sense. Why not just reissue a new gun or replace the retractor lever assembly or the entire housing assembly? That would certainly be a lot quicker (10 minutes?) than cutting the slit, drilling the bolt, then inserting a cocking handle (at least 40 minutes if skilled). In Normandy there would have been plenty of parts available either on a ship (days 1 and 2, as well as spares just laying around) or in local depots (day 3 on). This leads me to only 2 conclusions. It was an experimental mod/repair of a worn out gun by an ordnance geek (or a very bored soldier with access to tools) then discarded by throwing away (leading to it's being found later), OR it was a totally unauthorized repair by someone who was not legally in possession of the weapon and who therefore did not have access to crates of new 'housing assemblies' and 'retractor levers.' This second option although implying possession by criminals, does not preclude a possession and repair by a member of the resistance. While the Nazis ruled, the possession was illegal, and access to ordnance depots was also non existent. The retractor levers of these things failed or jammed a lot. Thats why the M3a1 was made. We dropped thousands of the M3s in crates over Europe and SE Asia/Philippines by parachute as soon as we could. Picture some resistance gal/guy who learns the hard way the retractor lever jams. [We will ignore the magazine issues for now.] Surviving the encounter they resolve to fix the problem. A friendly and patriotic blacksmith and you have the result. IMO the other option is a stolen gun fixed by a post war crook.


All M3s dropped in Europe were in 9mm luger and adapted to accept Sten magazines. The recoil springs group shows red varnish spots to make it reckognizable from the .45 one. Solcarlus forgot to tell that this dug out french M3 is a .45 one then unavailable for resistence groups.

Edited by artu44, 04 August 2007 - 09:31 AM.


#14 airborne53

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 01:23 AM

hello

one other came from eastern france

 

100_6412.jpg

100_6413.jpg

100_6414.jpg

 

olivier



#15 Johan Willaert

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 02:04 AM

Also described in this excellent study by Mike Ellis of the 90th ID Group

 

Page 8: http://www.90thidpg.... Wartime M3.pdf



#16 artu44

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 02:21 AM

As I can see all these M3s pictured here have no adapter for 9mm so we can assume there are .45 so they weren't made for resistance or OSS units. We can also see the hole where the crank lever hinged then this is not a factory ultimate modifications (they would have removed the relevant punch in the press). We can think only to an intermediate step between M3 and M3A1 made using already made frames.



#17 audacia cum prudentia

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 02:48 AM

It's a field mod,  a la Sten gun, no more, no less,



#18 artu44

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 03:01 AM

It could be in case of a single specimen but here there are more than one pictured. But the question is WHY? No simpaty for the lever?


Edited by artu44, 26 December 2013 - 03:01 AM.


#19 audacia cum prudentia

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 04:48 AM

The levers were crap, they broke, they caught on stuff, US armourers no doubt had seen Stens, modification by armourers in the field was simple, they had all the kit to do so, Not universal obviously, but not unknown



#20 SKYLINE DRIVE

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 12:26 AM

Those are quite common modifications. Allthough there are more regular M3 then transformed ones, that are found on the Battlefields of the Bulge the modified versions are more then just a few isolated specimens. Considered the obvious quality of the work put into the transformation and the quite specialized machinery you needed to perform the work, most collectors over here agree that it must have been made in unit armouries by trained armourers with a high level of craftmanship skills. It is very hard to quantify the phenomena with hard numbers, but I would say that somewhere inbetween 10% and 20% of the Grease Guns I've seen had those field modifications.



#21 artu44

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 12:42 AM

I wouldn't say "high level of craftmanship". To do the job you need just a less than decent machinist and three simple machine tools: milling machine for the slot, a drill press for the new bolt handle hole and a lathe to build the handle if you dont want to use an already made Sten one.



#22 SKYLINE DRIVE

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 01:22 AM

I wouldn't say "high level of craftmanship". To do the job you need just a less than decent machinist and three simple machine tools: milling machine for the slot, a drill press for the new bolt handle hole and a lathe to build the handle if you dont want to use an already made Sten one.

 

Ok, maybe I exagerated a little, it surely is no work from Ferlach or Suhl!  But all those I've seen, must be about 8 of them, were clearly to well done to be the work of an infantrymen in the field with no specialized tools at hand.



#23 artu44

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 02:13 AM

Yes, if you are quite proficient with a file, you need only a drill press and a Sten handle but the difference in quality will be visible. LOL



#24 Baron3-6

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 09:30 PM

Looks like a modified M3 was also found recnetly in MA, probably a bringback from the ETO:

http://www.guns.com/...source=facebook



#25 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:09 AM

My Guide Lamp M3. Its cocking lever is clearly visible.

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