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M1910 Intrenching shovel.....USMC or Euro Clone?

Started by Greg Robinson , Aug 01 2007 02:30 AM

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#1 Greg Robinson

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 02:30 AM

These have always been a mystery to me. But for the lack of "US" markings and the addition of the reinforcing plate they appear to be made to the US milspec. Over the years I've only seen a handful and always labeled as "USMC" but nobody seems to be able to authenticate them. Some call them strictly fantasy items and probably foreign made. But there is logic in the Marine Corps adopting a heavier duty shovel......some of the mid war campaigns were on coral atolls. So if they truly are "USMC" were they made to a Marine Corps specific specification or are they standard M1910's that were modified? The mystery continues...........

Greg

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#2 teufelhund

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 03:24 AM

I also want to know, but what I can tell you is that 25 years ago, an army surplus in my country ( still in activity) had offered thousands of 1910 entrenching spades of the 1910 Model for sale.
I remember that the price was then about 200 Belgian francs each or 6.75 USD of today ( I bought about 20 for that price but this was not enough)
They were interesting in the sense that some of the covers were dated back to 1905-1906 with the Krag Pedersen hanging system most of them with tremendous stencil markings or round copper roundel with unit stamping..
It was established, by the owner of the Surplus that this huge stock was acquired from the french army ( probably lend lease contract).
The two model of shovels were encountered , and I then suspected that the unmarked reinforced model was made locally in France, but this version was later denied by a french friend who stated the french never manufactured such type of spade..;
The mystery continues....
Teufelhund

#3 General Apathy

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 03:43 AM

Hi Greg, regarding this style of shovel, lots of these came out of French surplus stocks when they sold off all their old WWII items in the seventies and eighties. They were readily mixed in with the regular U.S. made and marked ones.

Given that most of the stock the French bought would have been ex-American equipment left in Europe at the wars end and the American government not wishing to pay costs to ship all this unwanted mass of stuff back to America it was sold off cheaply or given to the French.

It is therefore hard to see that they would have shipped unwanted ' USMC' shovels from the pacific as it would have been cheaper to burn them than ship them, so I feel the quest on as to the what, why and wherefore of these shovels continues.

There was also a habit of the French and other European armies to have equipment made in the same style of the American equipment to keep the uniformity of their soldiers complete, as stocks of the American made items wore out or were field damaged. There are French made copies of the American Medical bags and such, and the Norwegians made examples of the M-43 jacket and trousers in the 1960's

Cheers ( Lewis )

#4 Greg Robinson

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 05:28 AM

Based on the two replies I've gotten to this topic it seems unlikely that the shovel is "USMC". But then it's always been my understanding that the French acquired a lot of WW2 USMC gear post WW2. Among other places, it was used by the French when they sent troops to Indochina. And there are the USMC ponchos that a European dealer discovered in Greece a few years ago. If this is true....where did it come from?

Greg

#5 teufelhund

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 05:59 AM

Based on the two replies I've gotten to this topic it seems unlikely that the shovel is "USMC". But then it's always been my understanding that the French acquired a lot of WW2 USMC gear post WW2. Among other places, it was used by the French when they sent troops to Indochina. And there are the USMC ponchos that a European dealer discovered in Greece a few years ago. If this is true....where did it come from?

Greg


Exactly Greg...
All the shovels of this old surplus stock were contained in an original US MADE Cover, some, as already stated dating from 1905-06 which were almost brand new. The two types of shovel were mixed together in the 40 feet container, but the covers opf both types was ALWAYS US made.

Some WWI covers were re-used during WWII, as it was attested by the ( shortened) serial number of the GI inked on it like A-123456.
Most of the early covers were still in pristine condition, with RIA inspectors stamps on the leather rim.

This having be said, I have always have suspcted that the showels were made in France , but I have not a start of an evidence.
Recently ,, some US WWII material has appea

#6 teufelhund

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 05:59 AM

Exactly Greg...
All the shovels of this old surplus stock were contained in an original US MADE Cover, some, as already stated dating from 1905-06 which were almost brand new. The two types of shovel were mixed together in the 40 feet container, but the covers opf both types was ALWAYS US made.

Some WWI covers were re-used during WWII, as it was attested by the ( shortened) serial number of the GI inked on it like A-123456.
Most of the early covers were still in pristine condition, with RIA inspectors stamps on the leather rim.

This having be said, I have always have suspcted that the showels were made in France , but I have not a start of an evidence.
Recently ,, some US WWII material has appea



#7 teufelhund

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 06:12 AM

Recently ,, some US WWII material has appeared on the market , such as
Us tanker helmets from Danemark

1928 thompson SMG from Russia ( Lend lease)
20 Rds Mag pouch from Russia
1911 A1 pistol from Russia
Pistol belts from same origin
All of these 4 precedingly listed items were contained in US tanks shipped to Russia via Arkangelsk or Iran.
M1 Carbines & M1 Garand Rifles from Italy ( Beretta included)
3" US Mortars from the Belgian Army
1919-A4 MG

ETC...
ETC...

Teufelhund

#8 teufelhund

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 06:18 AM

Recently ,, some US WWII material has appeared on the market , such as
Us tanker helmets from Danemark

1928 thompson SMG from Russia ( Lend lease)
20 Rds Mag pouch from Russia
1911 A1 pistol from Russia
Pistol belts from same origin
All of these 4 precedingly listed items were contained in US tanks shipped to Russia via Arkangelsk or Iran.
M1 Carbines & M1 Garand Rifles from Italy ( Beretta included)
3" US Mortars from the Belgian Army
1919-A4 MG

ETC...
ETC...

Teufelhund


Please read 61 MM mortars instead
T

#9 General Apathy

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 07:23 AM

Hi Greg, reading some of the other input suddenly made me remember that twenty years ago there were M-1910 shovel covers available that were lighter canvas than the American ones and on the rear they were stamped ' Armee Francaise ', these were all in used condition and lots of them had rust stains from the type of un-coated mild steel they had used for the belt hooks.

Cheers ( Lewis )

#10 Greg Robinson

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 07:58 AM

Hi Greg, reading some of the other input suddenly made me remember that twenty years ago there were M-1910 shovel covers available that were lighter canvas than the American ones and on the rear they were stamped ' Armee Francaise ', these were all in used condition and lots of them had rust stains from the type of un-coated mild steel they had used for the belt hooks.

Cheers ( Lewis )


FWIW....the Marine Corps Philadelphia Supply Depot did produce some shovel covers that were a lightweight canvas and had steel hooks. PLus they were usually unmarked. It's possible that was the origin of those and they were later stamped to the French Army.

Greg

#11 General Apathy

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 08:39 AM

Hi Greg, As with the all of the things manufactured by the French to replace worn out American stocks the strength and the weave are totally different to WWII American material. You should see the quality of the canvas used on the GMC
6 x 6 troop carriers, the thread they used for weaving was not consistent in it's dimensions and therefore you get this rough look to the surface, the same applied to the half-track covers.

I really don't see the shovel covers as being unmarked American ones, re-stamped.

Cheers ( Lewis )

Edited by General Apathy, 01 August 2007 - 08:40 AM.


#12 Greg Robinson

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 09:24 AM

Hi Greg, As with the all of the things manufactured by the French to replace worn out American stocks the strength and the weave are totally different to WWII American material. You should see the quality of the canvas used on the GMC
6 x 6 troop carriers, the thread they used for weaving was not consistent in it's dimensions and therefore you get this rough look to the surface, the same applied to the half-track covers.

I really don't see the shovel covers as being unmarked American ones, re-stamped.

Cheers ( Lewis )


I'm sure you're correct about this since you've seen French made webbing items before. It was just a thought I had since I suspect the French needed all the military gear they could lay their hands on during that period. In the post ww2 years they were trying to reclaim their former world empire and so were having to equip lots of troops. No doubt, lots of surplus US WW2 gear...,some of it USMC....got left behind after Dien Bien Phu.

Greg


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