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When the Family comes calling.........


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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo

I'm mixed on this topic but have a tendency to be a bit harsh regarding the return of military items, especially to extended (not immediate) family members. I browse the internet, garage, estate sales, thrift stores, antique stores etc., and come across the usual gear, equipment and insignia but occasionally I come across more desirable and named groups, lots and pieces. Often these items come from estate sales where the family took the house apart, took what they wanted and then lef the rest to the estate sale company to sell. In some cases the estate sale is over and the items are being trashed. Often families don't know, veterans don't share, and sometimes the veteran or family don't care about the "old army stuff" and off it goes never to be thought of again. We collect it, trade it, sell it, and life goes on. Personally I've stopped mentioning names from some items on eBay, blotting them out and revealing them to the winning bidder only.

What I don't need is the 3rd Cousin, twice removed, by marriage, who suddenly contacts me wanting something from their Great, Great, 3rd Cousin, who they never really knew. From a Veterans perspective, my immediate Family know the importance and value I place on my personal service items and as time passes, interest and knowledge of my personal service will diminish. At one point in time my Grandchildrens children might be informed that "Great Grandpa was in the Army or something and his trunks are in the attic collecting dust. Why don't we let the kids wear the old uniforms for halloween?" or, "We need to turn the attic into a nursury so let's donate or have a garage sale?"

 

Then the next thing you know someone comes along and takes apart your stuff at some garage sale and it's three sheets to the wind. My fantasy is that all my items, uniforms, weapons, insignia, patches and footlockers will be sold or given away to the likes of someone on this forum as an entire grouping- Someone that will keep them together and value them for what they are. In 50 years some collector will have a really nice grouping and can post pictures of it and have fun with it as a personal treasure. Heck, maybe they can sell or trade it to someone else that wants it all!

 

Once a family loses sight of an item honestly, I'm not likely to return it to them. I know that my Wife or Daughter, Mom or Dad know the personal value I have in my stuff and they wouldn't ever sell it unless it was a family emergency. Other than that, I believe that extended Family have no skin in the game and don't care or know me well enough- all they'd see is dollar signs and have as much right to the items as any of us. Of course there may some exceptions to that, but I have a clear conscience on the selling of named items.

 

Rock

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Yeah but in a legitimate case of "my worthless cousin stole it from granny's house and sold it for meth" etc., wouldn't you want to have it back? There are several uniforms / items that have gotten misplaced in my family by people who did not care. If one was to resurface here, I'd contact the collector and make an offer.

 

The only thing I can say for a family member requesting an item be returned is 1. show some proof of relation 2. Be willing to pay the collector what they have in it. If it was an item of very high value, I'd have them sign a notorized legal document stating it would not be sold for profit. That would put the burden of proof on them OR I'd even donate to a museum of their choice if I got a tax write-off for the value.

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We should not always jump to conclusions about a family trying to find medals. My Dad served in Korea. When he was in college after the war, my Grandmother disposed of all of his Navy items. We don’t know if she threw them away or gave them away. My Dad has ALWAYS wanted to have his items back but we know they are long gone.

 

And as far as extended family, we don’t always know that situation either. My Dad is an only child and my Mom had one sister. My immediate family consists of one aunt, one uncle and two cousins. I have relatives, (immediate and distant) who have served in all of the major wars. I have tried to create a shadow box representing one of my relatives who served in each of the wars. Some of the items for distant relatives are still with that side of the family which is great. All of my shadow boxes except one are created using current medals but represent my relatives. However, if none of this had stayed in the family, I would have LOVED for a chance to get any of their items for a shadow box. I don't think it always has to be a direct descendant.

 

...Kat

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The way I see it is that every item in our personal collections once belonged to someone else...be they medals, wings, uniforms or ephemera etc. The only reason we are able to own them is because the original owners, or their families, decided they no longer wanted or needed them and therefore disposed of them...possibly via estate sales, garage sales, Craigslist, thrift stores etc., thereby consciously relinquishing ownership. Collectors like us evidently value these artefacts more than they do and are better custodians!

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thereby consciously relinquishing ownership. Collectors like us evidently value these artefacts more than they do and are better custodians!

 

 

Ian,

 

While this may be true in some cases, it is not ALWAYS the truth. Please realize that my father's items were HIS and not my Grandmother's. SHE disposed of them without his knowledge. He would give anything to have HIS items back. I do NOT for one instance believe that anyone would value my father's items better than him or me.

 

This is not a black and white subject. There is sometimes some grey in there.

 

...Kat

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Ian,

 

While this may be true in some cases, it is not ALWAYS the truth. Please realize that my father's items were HIS and not my Grandmother's. SHE disposed of them without his knowledge. He would give anything to have HIS items back. I do NOT for one instance believe that anyone would value my father's items better than him or me.

 

This is not a black and white subject. There is sometimes some grey in there.

 

...Kat

 

Fair comment.

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The way I see it is that every item in our personal collections once belonged to someone else...be they medals, wings, uniforms or ephemera etc. The only reason we are able to own them is because the original owners, or their families, decided they no longer wanted or needed them and therefore disposed of them...possibly via estate sales, garage sales, Craigslist, thrift stores etc., thereby consciously relinquishing ownership. Collectors like us evidently value these artefacts more than they do and are better custodians!

 

The only problem is that not everyone knowingly or willingly parts with stuff. If a man with a degenerative cognitive impairment brought on by advanced age is asked to give or sell some old trunk which happens to contain his WWII bringbacks and uniforms (for the purpose of this exercise let's say it has an 'eagle' patch on it) then it could be considered defraudment. The family may never have known it left their possession until they went to look for it months or years later.

 

So it's entirely plausible that items may be removed from the family under questionable circumstances.

 

Kat brings up a good point (I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on tv), the items were her father's to keep or giveaway. Ian, if Mrs. Sabrejet decided to free up some room and threw away or gave away some boxes of your items you might want to get them back. There are two sides to every story, we should consider them before passing judgement on someone by tossing a blanket statement out that effectively they snoozed and 'losed'.

 

Just something to think about.

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And playing the other side of this, it is not the collectors fault nor his duty to search out and to return an item in which a family member under any circumstance, allowed it to be removed from the family. Family issues are just that, family issues. If the collector is contacted and offered a fair price for it's return, then the "right" thing to do, would be to sell it back BUT, it is not the "required" thing to do. If the collector obtained it by legal means and it is not proven that it was stolen(with police report), then the collector is not under any obligation to return it. My mom sold all my dad's stuff in a rummage sale back in the early 70's, my dad did not want these items sold but, he had never shared that with my mom. Now, should I ever by the slimmest of chances, ever find the person who bought my dad's footlocker group which includes his stuff from his time in the 84th and the 32nd, I will offer to buy it at an extremely awesome offer. Should he choose to not sell it to me, I will thank him and move on with my life.

BTW, should the owner of my dads stuff just happen to see this, his name is: SSGT. L.E. Stevens and I will make you very happy with my offer to buy this all back. :)

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo

As I mentioned in my post, there are always exceptions. Theft of treasured items, loss and a real willingness to restore the lost item by the Veteran, his spouse or children. I did have a nice Grouping of a Vietnam Veteran who had disowned his Family and didn't communicate with them much, if at all. He passed away, leaving his home to HIS NEIGHBORS (unbeknownst to them!) to sell and donate the money to the local animal shelter. He simply didn't care about his Family with regard to his estate and so when I got ahold of his items, his Sister comes out of the wordwork and asks if she can see them. I had a friendly conversation, gave her some information from his journal that settled her heart a little but did not give her anything. He made it clear that his Family got nothing by his actions and I wasn't about to go against that.

 

Same thing for my Family- I don't want Family Members getting ahold of my collection and personal service items unless I say so.

 

Rock

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Very touching story; Hopefully the historical society displays it proudly in memory of Pfc. Merriott's service and sacrifice.

 

The only thing that bothers me about the story is the statement that the overturning of the SVA made it legal to buy, sell and trade the Purple Heart. The SVA has nothing to do with this.

 

+1

 

Exactly.

 

More bull from a well-meaning yet uninformed reporter.

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I understand that someone who finds a family member's items in a collector's hands would want it back, but I DO NOT agree with the general attitude of "entitlement" most have that join this forum. Also, it seems in almost every situation...the items are always conveniently "stolen" as to tug at the heart strings of collectors and try to bully to get items. The main issue I see regarding the debate of returning items to family members is that it seems to have picked up now the items have become valuable, I didn't hear of this happening 10 years ago + when items were generally inexpensive. Not to mention the amount of "shady" individuals that call themselves family members on the forum, and then scamper away when faced with the slightest scrutiny or proof being needed before anything being done. Also, not to sound harsh or anything...but we have paid for these items (sometimes quite a bit) and I find it quite rude that people just expect it to be given to them, free of charge. If I knew where my grandfather's Merchant Marine/US Army items were, I would be damn sure to make a good offer on them.... or my MIA/KIA great-uncle's items from his time with ATC (went down on route to California, from Catalina) or my great-uncles KIA Purple Heart and items (who was killed when the USS Arizona was hit on 12/7/41 and a destroyer was named after him).

 

I want to point out that some people have joined this forum and are happy to purchase the items or are just fine knowing that they are in collectors hands. I am speaking of the majority that join with a more different intent.

 

 

I find it strange that almost every report I see regarding family members having medals returned by someone or an organization, that collectors are demonized and items are speculated to be "lost" or "stolen" in most cases. And as stated, most of the time these items are sold by the family willingly....with a small percentage being stolen or lost. But they are referred to as "lost" when they are found in a collector's hands or when written about in articles. It just rubs me the wrong way, maybe a story should be done about what collector's actually do with these items...or featuring one of the multiple websites/museums that forum member's personally fund and maintain.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Philip

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Armed with $0.7 of input for this subject, I can offer a perspective that is applicable. My grand uncle who served in three wars passed away in the late 1990s. His spouse of 30+ years had passed away about a decade prior to him. Neither of them had children. My grandfather (his sole heir) was, at that time, mentally incapacitated suffering from early, but rapid onset of Alzheimer’s disease. When my uncle passed, his will had called for the management of the majority of his estate to be left with my grandfather, father and me. What remained after we had our “opportunity” was to be sold and the proceeds (and remainder) to be donated to charity. I sought out his military items when my opportunity arose.

Sadly, my uncle’s caretaker (the cousin and close-friend of my grand uncle’s spouse) stated that the medals and decorations had been entrusted into the hands of my grandfather weeks prior to his older brother’s passing (for safe-keeping). When my father and I asked my grandfather, he remembered “something” about some medals but wasn’t sure. We searched his assisted living home finding no evidence that they were there.

I checked the front desk to see if the caretaker did visit my grandfather when she said she had…and it was verified…so at least I know that there was some sort of truth to the story. It seems that either my incapacitated grandfather was robbed (which happened on a few occasions at his “home”) or he was swindled out of/gave away the medals.

I have the perspective of being a collector and “the family” historian. I’ve been given just about every piece of (existing) family militaria to safeguard and document (which isn’t a lot). If my uncle’s decorations were to show up here or within anyone’s collection, I have no intention of placing any demands upon them. I know how this works and that they’d have probably changed hands many times and the person who should be held to task is long since out of the fold. If at all possible, I’d inquire as to the possibility of acquiring the pieces should/when the present owner wished to divest themselves. To demand their return or to guilt trip someone into it? Heck no.

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Philip

 

 

You stated “I understand that someone who finds a family member's items in a collector's hands would want it back, but I DO NOT agree with the general attitude of "entitlement" most have that join this forum.”

 

I have not seen this attitude on the forum. While it may be for some of the people outside of the forum, I don’t believe that is the general attitude on this forum.

 

You stated “Also, it seems in almost every situation...the items are always conveniently "stolen" as to tug at the heart strings of collectors and try to bully to get items.”

 

I believe the ones getting the news attention are the ones that are stolen. A person who is researching their family tree is not newsworthy but a “stolen” item is.

 

You stated “The main issue I see regarding the debate of returning items to family members is that it seems to have picked up now the items have become valuable, I didn't hear of this happening 10 years ago + when items were generally inexpensive.”

 

I believe the attitude now leans more towards honor and respect of those who have served more than the attitude that something is valuable. Now the two do go hand in hand. The new interest in military has driven up prices but I don’t think that has affected people researching family items as you suggest.

 

You stated “Not to mention the amount of "shady" individuals that call themselves family members on the forum, and then scamper away when faced with the slightest scrutiny or proof being needed before anything being done.”

 

I may have missed it but I have not seen any large amount of shady individuals joining the forum and scampering away as you suggest.

 

You stated “I find it strange that almost every report I see regarding family members having medals returned by someone or an organization, that collectors are demonized and items are speculated to be "lost" or "stolen" in most cases.”

 

These types of comments such as in the Purple Heart thread yesterday are not related to the article but are comments made on the news article’s website by people who are just flat out stupid and should not be listened to.

 

This is definitely an area where people feel passionately. However, to generalize people looking for family items is the EXACT same as you stating people are generalizing collectors as being “demonized”. You are responding exactly the same as the people you are condemning. You are just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

....Kat

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Kat,

 

I will say that I mis-spoke/was misunderstood when stating that people joining this forum are "entitled." This was not what I meant, I did mean that when family members or relatives join seeking items...it is an attitude that I see a good amount of time. I have seen many occasions when a member was happy to see the medal in a collector's hands or are glad to purchase it. But I have seen the latter many more occasions. I have also seen moments where relatives created very pointed threads or comments on threads...I have personally seen threads where they have gone after members that had the medals or tried to explain it to them. I also recall threads where relatives have made comments on threads about the medals being a family members, and when certain situations are brought up to them...they turn into the "stolen" explanation. When talking about "shady" individuals joining the forum claiming to be relatives, I have seen chunks of time when it happened multiple times a week....when an update was posted or mentioned, it usually involved never hearing back from the "relative" after asking for proof or a prior police report. Also, when it comes to articles...I have seen the generalizations being made by commentators and journalists alike. I recall one that was titled, "Medal Peddlers" which featured Cpt. Fike returning Purple Hearts and quite an unfair view cast about collectors. It is sad that researching and preserving is not newsworthy, but stolen items are....it casts a one-sided view on the issue.

 

I am not trying to throw a blanket statement over the issue, I am simply pointing out what I have seen in my years on the forum.

 

Philip

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vintageproductions

I am with Philip here.

Nine times out of ten, the "supposed" family member comes in here with their guns a blazing, about how their dear family members medals were stolen, but when asked for proof they usually crawl back in the dark corners they came from.

For the best proof of this just go back and read about Robin giving the USMC Purple Heart back. That incident says enough for me.

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I am with Philip here.

Nine times out of ten, the "supposed" family member comes in here with their guns a blazing, about how their dear family members medals were stolen, but when asked for proof they usually crawl back in the dark corners they came from.

For the best proof of this just go back and read about Robin giving the USMC Purple Heart back. That incident says enough for me.

I'd suspect that this is more a of an "it feels like" rather than this is actually scientific data measurement. A healthy dose of skepticism is always the norm for these situations. If the alleged "family" fails to respond to verification or proof of their connection, how is this even an issue?

 

I've seen some fantastic stories of groups being reunited with family (regardless of the circumstances of the original departure from them) for all the right reasons. Robin's story (IIRC the one you are referring to) is in the absolute minority with all of the family reunion stories.

 

As Kat said, to paint any/all of the family members with the same brush is no different than what the likes of Purple Hearts Reunited (and their ilk) does with regards to collectors.

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There have been and still are military people in my family.

 

All but two of them find the collecting of any families military heirlooms as dishonorable, disrespectful and should not be done.

 

A part of me understands their sentiment and I've been amazed at what I've had the privilege to own.

 

On the other hand all you need is for some of them to hire a lobbyist and change the law.

 

As for the rise in claims we owe it to the internet.

 

More and more people are starting searches on the internet and voila there's grandpa's stuff on the USMF.

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo

There have been and still are military people in my family.

 

All but two of them find the collecting of any families military heirlooms as dishonorable, disrespectful and should not be done.

 

A part of me understands their sentiment and I've been amazed at what I've had the privilege to own.

 

On the other hand all you need is for some of them to hire a lobbyist and change the law.

 

As for the rise in claims we owe it to the internet.

 

More and more people are starting searches on the internet and voila there's grandpa's stuff on the USMF.

 

If Grandpa wanted them to have it he would have made sure it was taken care of. I watched as my Wife's Uncle, Adelbert Sc***** (76th Division) WWII Vet, military items went slowly away. He brought back uniforms, Luger in holster, flag, insignia, foot locker etc. and they stayed in his basement while he was alive. When he passed away his Wife (Aunt Hazel) gave one son the Luger, who gave it to his teenage son. The German Flag ditto. The uniforms are who knows where, the footlocker thrown away because it was old and dusty, and so on. She continues to give away his group piecemeal or throw it away or whatever.

 

None of his Family knew or cared about his WWII service that much but if something of value comes up, well I'm sure they'll be all interested in it. I have his burial flag, patches, 2nd AD Sterling Ring, and a few other items that I'm keeping and preserving. I'll be mounting them in a Triangle Flag display so that they cannot continue to be degraded through attrition.

 

The story is that there are many family members who give no time or interest into the Veterans themselves while they are alive, then feign concern only when there is something to gain from it. Not all are this way, but I suspect a decent percentage. Aunt Hazel was advised by me to keep the grouping together, all of it, but she wanted to be nice to her kids and none of them have any military interest or knowledge or a bone of perservation or they would have honored the whole thing, not just the piece they wanted that held value.

 

I'll keep the trinkets and they can have the nugget. Someday that Luger will be on the open market, or handed over to some police officer to be destroyed.

 

Rock

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I have been doing this thing we do for almost 40 years. Out of all the items I could have collected...I chose to collect US named medals and groups. So, with that territory comes every 2nd or 3rd cousin kin to those Brave souls who have their names etched on the reverses of the medals. I have learned not to judge the first contact with families as it can go either way... first contact or the ending.

 

The families are usually in disbelief, shocked, or surprised that these medals even exist or they are bewildered, shocked, angry that you are in possession of their family heritage. I then take the time to explain how I wound up with the medals of this Great Generation of Men. I have heard all the stories of stolen medals and to this day I have never returned a medal for that reason. Nobody wants to think Great Aunt Judy would sell off the family heirlooms, but it happens. The controversy will never leave named medal collecting...as long as the nephew, 2nd cousin or 3rd cousin is out there.

 

I made the decision not to worry about posting or shielding my collection a long time back(I know that is not everybody's choice). I was contacted today by a family about a medal on my website (second time). I listened to their story and they requested the return and they would refund my costs. So, here comes the rub; I told them to send a check for $2400. and it would be on the way. The family called and wanted a receipt showing I paid that-I told them better than that I would give them the phone # of who sold it to me. No response. That was two years ago and now another member is contacting.

 

Captain Fike has maybe returned 40 or so Purple Hearts in his endeavor...I have helped rescue 40 Purple Hearts from cigar boxes, cedar chests, tool chests and trash cans in two weeks. We would expect better treatment from the media but they do what sells...so the Heart tugging stories will beat us out every time. Our problem is somewhat like a fence...there will always be people on both sides...I will do what I do and the Captain Fikes can do what they do...

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I can't for the life of me understand people who think you shouldn't own something like that just because you didn't earn it.

Do the same people think collecting Olympic medals or old trophies is equally wrong?

What're people supposed to do, be buried with everything that was awarded to them?

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Random experience:

 

In the process of working on my book, I visited a family who still had their relative's awards. I photographed everything, and the person asked me if I was planning on visiting their sibling to obtain more information about the relative for the book. I told them I wasn't planning on it, not from being mean or uncaring, but I simply didn't have time to do it (I put 1300 miles on my rental car in 2.5 days visiting families in three states...I was moving quick from one place to another!) Besides, the person I was visiting had the medals and everything else I could want to include images of for my book, so there was no need for me to visit the sibling in person - I could talk to them over the phone or correspond via e-mail.

 

Interestingly, the person I was visiting made several overt hints about selling the group of medals and associated documents. I committed myself at the very beginning of researching the topic of my book and visiting families to not buy anything from anyone, even if they offered it to me. This was to avoid any appearance of impropriety on my claim of writing a book, as well as the potential to avoid any pissed off family members ("He didn't give me enough money for the medals", etc....) So I told this person to keep the medals in the family for as long as they could. They almost seemed disappointed that I didn't make an offer.

Two days later, I was called by the person I visited and they told me that their sibling who I didn't visit wanted to talk to me. So, I called them up and I GOT BLASTED BY THEM. Yes...they lambasted me for not visiting them because they feel so strongly about their relative and in fact, they were angry at their sibling for not having them in on a conference call during the visit. They were so angry they even told me that they even threatened to not allow me to write about their relative nor use the images I took for the book as these things were so important to them and I took away their opportunity to share with me the importance of these medals and about their relative.

 

Needless to say...my head was spinning. One relative offered to sell me the medals. The other just about told me off over the phone because I was not appreciating the importance of these medals to their family.

 

Pretty bizarre...but that's how these things end up on the market and how other family members are blown away that some collector ended up with them...

 

Just my recent experience...

 

Dave

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Needless to say...my head was spinning. One relative offered to sell me the medals. The other just about told me off over the phone because I was not appreciating the importance of these medals to their family.

Just goes to show, you can never please everyone so, why try?

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I can't for the life of me understand people who think you shouldn't own something like that just because you didn't earn it.

Do the same people think collecting Olympic medals or old trophies is equally wrong?

What're people supposed to do, be buried with everything that was awarded to them?

 

The people I am talking about are officers with a couple of West Point grads thrown in the mix and all retired.

 

Their attitude is that this stuff is sacred and should not be in the publics hands.

 

There are more and more people with this attitude.

 

Just an observation I thought might have some relevance.

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