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Difference between civil/army m1917 bolo?


dmv
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Hello,

 

I was wondering what the difference would be between an army and a civilian produced m1917 Bolo knife.

 

I did a search for them in this forum and there was stated that civil types have the C.T marking for civilian type?

 

I also encountered bolo's with a black bakelite type handles in stead of the wood ones, what type are these?

 

Thanks in advance, hope to learn from you guys!

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dmv- Off the top of my head. Springfield made the 1910 Bolo, bright balde, dated, and serial numbered. They also had a spring loaded scabbard catch, similar to an M1905 Bayonet.This kept it locked in the scabbard. The US entered WW1, and needed more M1910 Bolos. Springfield was overloaded with rifles and bayonets, etc. Plumb, and American Cutlery Co., began producing a stream-lined production versio. Similar in appearence, the new version eliminated the catch, braised on the pommels, (not milled like SPRFLD), and did not serial number the knives. All metal had a black finish (parkerized), and retained the wood grips. These were designated M1917 because of the changes.The plastic handle bolos were produced by Kiffe of Japan in the 1970's. I bought one in 1974 for $5, w/ an original Brauer Bros 1917 dated scabbard. Supposedly therewas another manufacturer in WW1, names slips my mind,but have never seen one. Hopefully the other guys will chime in and fill in the gaps, and or mistakes. I love these bolos. SKIP

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bayonetman

The Model of 1910 bolo was the basis for the Model 1917, with the primary difference being the elimination of the scabbard catch from the Model 1910. 1917 production of the Model 1910 by Springfield started with the bright blade/blued guard and hilt that had been standard, went to a fully dark "war finish" blue, and then at the end left the scabbard catch off.

With the beginning of WW1 the demand for bolos let to contracts being issued to Plumb and American Cutlery. Plumb produced the Model 1917, which was a Model 1910 without the scabbard catch and fully dark Parkerized at their Philadelphia plant, but due to Ordnance requirements submitted a simplified version which finally was adopted as the Model 1917 CT with CT standing for Commercial Tolerances. This was a military item, not civilian use. There is no civilian version of this bolo until the KIFFE versions of the 1960s with the plastic grips.

Previous 1910 and 1917 models used a separate pommel piece which was furnace brazed to the tang after the guard was slipped over the tang. The Commercial Tolerance used a one piece forged blade and pommel, which required the guard to be cut and slid onto the blade and then brazed in place. This was simpler, cheaper and faster. American Cutlery of Chicago and the Plumb plant in St. Louis made this type exclusively, while Plumb in Philadelphia made both types.

Top and Left - SA Model 1910 made in 1917

Middle - 1917 CT by American Cutlery Co of Chicago

Lower and Right - 1917 by Fayette R Plumb of Philadelphia

post-66-0-31355100-1401801641.jpg

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Gary- Thanks! Thought I might have been a little off in production methods. After looking at the photos, and my four bolos, I'm not sure I understand why a a procedure, cut the guard and then braze, was done. My Springfield and Plumb appear to have been done the first method, guard over tang. But, my ACC (CT) hasa finish just like yours. Looked with a magnifying glass all over the guard, trying to figure out how it was cut. Was it split, top-bottom, a piece off the side ???? Any ideas? Thanks SKIP

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bayonetman

Other than the descriptions, I am not sure how it was done. However, it was done on the side near the true edge. The piece of the guard was bent out in some way, inserted, and then the pieces brought together and either left with the braze holding it, or possibly tack welded. The guard was slipped up against the base of the blade and brazed in place.

However it was done, you can usually see the "crack" in the guard. In the photos below of both sides of the guard, the arrows show the crack. This one is a Plumb St. Louis, but my ACC has the same look. If the finish is near perfect, it may be hard to see. Hope this helps.

post-66-0-76261800-1401801839.jpg

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...due to Ordnance requirements submitted a simplified version which finally was adopted as the Model 1917 CT with CT standing for Commercial Type. This was a military item, not civilian use.

 

Gary,

 

I always thought the CT stood for "Continuous Tang" because the pommel was forged integral to the knife... This was supposed to make it easier to manufacture??? Although all my references are packed away now, and I can't put my finger on where I read that...

 

Does that sound at all familiar?

 

Chris

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bayonetman

According to Frank Trzaska, his references from original Ordnance sources refers to it as the Commercial Type and I have found it in other references also, so I believe this is correct.

 

His article on them in in the January 2007 issue of Knife World.

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Gary-My ACC is in mint condition, and I can't detect the seam. But seeing yours I have a better idea what to look for. OK! Just checked it out again, found the seam! Now it's real obvious.Can even detect where the seam was not completely filled in during brazing. THX SKIP

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According to Frank Trzaska, his references from original Ordnance sources refers to it as the Commercial Type and I have found it in other references also, so I believe this is correct.

 

His article on them in in the January 2007 issue of Knife World.

 

Well if you and Frank say it is Commercial Type, that is good enough for me! Thanks for the correction.

 

Chris

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...while Plumb in Philadelphia made both types.

 

Egad! Plumb Philadelphia made a version of the CT?!?! This means there is a version I don't have... :w00t:

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Charlie Flick

 

 

There is no civilian version of this bolo until the KIFFE versions of the 1960s with the plastic grips.


Hi Gary:

Sorry, I could not resist this one. Here is what I think is indeed a "civilian" version of the M1917 Bolo. This piece has been in my collection for many years. I suspect that it was a leftover blade from wartime production and was sold by Plumb on the commercial market in the 1920s. Or perhaps it was a factory gift or giveaway item to employees or favored customers. Who knows?

Anyway, I think this one probably qualifies as a "civilian" version since it seems unlikely that the military would have accepted this Bolo with the large Plumb Double Life logo on it.

As usual, you have presented the facts well and with your typically fine photos. Thanks, and please excuse my impertinence! :rolleyes:

Regards,
Charlie Flick

PlumbCivBolo2.jpg

 

PlumbCivBolo.jpg

 

PlumbCivBolo4.jpg

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According to Frank Trzaska, his references from original Ordnance sources refers to it as the Commercial Type and I have found it in other references also, so I believe this is correct.

 

His article on them in in the January 2007 issue of Knife World.

 

Gary,

 

In 2009 Frank posted the following on another Forum. Makes me think that he found additional information on this subject after he wrote the article in 2007.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

05-10-2009 03:32 PM #3 trz Junior Member Join Date Dec 1969 Posts 22

 

It has been stated in various places as Commercial Tang, Commercial Type and Commercial Tolerances. The Commercial Tolerances is the one most often used in the Ordnance paperwork and it the proper terminology for the CT.

 

The real difference was in the manufacturing of the bolo. A standard M1910 bolo as made at Springfield under the rigorous tolerances of Ordnance was priced at $4.92 each. The M1917 CT was manufactured for $1.65. Plumb argued with Ordnance that the tight tolerance were not needed in a bolo, it did not have an explosive charge it in that required exacting and repeated tolerances. In the end Ordnance relented and stated as long as it fit into the same scabbard and met the steel quality testing then Plumb could redesign it to make it on commercial machines which would speed up production. So the CT did not need to meet the Ordnance gauge inspector at every step of production.

 

Anyway, Commercial Tolerances, CT

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

Last edited by trz; 05-10-2009 at 10:40 PM.

 

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php...on&p=855309

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bayonetman

Charlie, thanks for posting the photo of the commercial Plumb St. Louis. Since I don't recall seeing one of these before or even a reference to it, I imagine that it is not very common. As a GUESS, I would think it more likely to be an advertising giveaway, but whatever it was, it is interesting.

 

As to the change in terminology that Frank has made since his article in 2007, I would imagine that he has indeed found new information. Frank is well known for his accuracy in terminology, but he is also the first to make a change when new information comes to light. Gunbarrel, thanks for bringing this new information to my attention!

 

As far as Plumb Philadelphia having made the CT, that may not have happened. Many years ago the Plumb plant in Philadelphia was purchased by the Ames Company (best known for their shovels as the bulk of the WW2 entrenching tools were made by Ames). Ames was located about 3 miles from my home. Several workers from here were sent to Philadelphia to sort and pack machinery, and while doing so, a few Model 1917 bolos were discovered and the workers were allowed to take them if they wanted them. I got one from a neighbor, and saw a few others that had been brought back. At least one or two were CT models, most were standard 1917. The CT ones MAY have been prototypes or setup samples, I honestly never gave it any thought and just assumed the CT was made there. Has anyone seen a Plumb Philadelphia Model 1917CT?

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Has anyone seen a Plumb Philadelphia Model 1917CT?

Gary,

 

I never have, but quite honestly, quit looking at them after I "competed the set" so to speak. The ones I have would be hard to upgrade, and so I quit pulling them out and looking at them when I came across new ones. But I'm going to look now...

 

Anybody else have any idea?

 

Chris

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Gary-Best of Cole has a Plumb CT on page 28.I have seen at least one. My 2 Plumbs are 1918's. w/ Mod. 1917 on reverse. SKIP

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Still-A-Marine
Gary-Best of Cole has a Plumb CT on page 28.I have seen at least one. My 2 Plumbs are 1918's. w/ Mod. 1917 on reverse. SKIP

 

SKIP,

 

Best of Cole pg 28 is the same as Cole III pg 21. The Plumb CT shown is a PLUMB ST LOUIS. Gary was asking if anybody has seen a PLUMB PHILA. Bill

post-4347-1273535965.jpg

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This is a fascinating and very educational thread. Thanks to all for sharing this information and the excellent photos. If I ever expand my collecting to pre-WWII/lack of WWII provenance this is probably one of the first bolos I would acquire.

 

Tim

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Hello all. Could someone explain the Kiffe-Japan bolos? Would they be stamped Japan only? Would the hole be drilled in the crossguard to accept the 1917 scabbard? Fitting fairly loosely? Thanks

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bayonetman
Hello all. Could someone explain the Kiffe-Japan bolos? Would they be stamped Japan only? Would the hole be drilled in the crossguard to accept the 1917 scabbard? Fitting fairly loosely? Thanks

 

Mine is stamped KIFFE over JAPAN on the lower blade side of the guard. Kiffe products are not consistent in their markings, so there may be variations of this mark. They are fitted with smooth black plastic grips, and are blued rather than Parkerized. They do have the hole for the Model 1910 scabbards, and fit loosely in those scabbards that do not have the retaining springs fitted.

 

The Model 1910 scabbards had the stud for the catch on the Model 1910 bolo to lock into the scabbards. When this catch was eliminated on the Model 1917 and 1917CT bolos, two flat brass retaining springs were fitted into the scabbard to prevent the bolo from simply falling out. Most of the Kiffe bolos that I have seen were in Model 1910 scabbards and were very loose fits.

 

The KIFFE bolos were made for commercial sales during the late 1960s and possibly 1970s. I have been told that they were made mostly so Kiffe could use up a large number of original scabbards that they had on hand and could not otherwise sell. Kiffe for some years sold a lot of "surplus" items, some were actually surplus, others were made simply for their sales programs.

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Thanks for the info Gary. This was a friend that showed me this. He got it with no grips and made a pair of wood ones. This is a blued blade. One last question please,,,Was the 1910 scabbard made by Bauer Bros and stamped 1917? Curious because it has the stud on the scabbard to lock into the crossguard. Again, Thanks

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Hey Gang! Just caught up to the thread. Checked out my Bolo scabbards. I have 4xM1910, but they do vary some. 1) A-K-CO dtd 1918, Insp-RHS, stamped on canvas A 1 4 (unit ID??), with no hook, brass throat. 2) Brauer Bros dtd 1918 no hook, parked brass throat. 3) Brauer Bros x2, dtd 1917 w/ hooks. 4) LFC Metal Scabbards x 3, all dtd 1918, two are new in wrapper, all w/ correct ding in scabbard from packing. Anyway, Brauer Bros. made both, w/ & w/o hook. SKIP

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