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WW1 wing to discuss


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#1 John Cooper

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 09:52 PM

All the following wing is up for sale and it stikes me as a not a good wing but since I do not colect WW1 wings I would like to hear\read your thoughts.



Basically this looks like a cast wing and I would think it should be diestruck.



John



http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/2566/ww1ua7.jpg

Edited by John Cooper, 12 July 2007 - 09:54 PM.


#2 John Cooper

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 09:53 PM

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/5158/ww1asl0.jpg

#3 John Cooper

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 09:54 PM

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/2626/ww1bsm0.jpg

#4 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 10:00 PM

I doubt Tiffany would have cast a wing like this either. I think it should be die struck too. I dont even know if Tiffany actually made wings in WWI or if this is a fantasy piece.

Kurt

#5 John Cooper

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 10:03 PM

Kurt - I sure they did but knowing the rep for Tiffany I too doubt this wing do to the quality.

John

I hope some of the guys who are into WW1 wings will be able to shed some light.

#6 Gary Cain

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 10:14 PM

Hi John,

That is a well known fake. The real Tiffany insignia is so stunning as to be instantly recognizable as good.


Gary

#7 John Cooper

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 10:25 PM

Gary,



Would you happen to have a photo of the real one? I would like to save someone from buying this if I can.



John

#8 DwightPruitt

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 04:43 AM

John, I believe the same wing was offered for sale over at germandaggers.com. The asking price was $3500.

#9 DwightPruitt

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 05:21 AM

I've been in email contact with Joe *************** - ebay handle mrmac1902- and he confirms that these wings are one of his reproductions...and sells as reproductions.

Here is his store:

http://www.1903.com/...p?productID=442

#10 John Cooper

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 08:16 AM

Thanks Dwight,

I forgot Joe made this type...

John



PS as stated I hope to help someone from buying this as a real wing and have contacted the seller with my concerns. I assume he does not know.

Edited by John Cooper, 13 July 2007 - 08:23 AM.


#11 bobgee

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 08:30 AM

Thanks Dwight,

I forgot Joe made this type...

John


MrMac Joe *************** makes fake repros of every type of U.S. wing badge ever made . They bear original Hallmarks and I don't understand why those still in business like Tiffany etc havn't taken him to court for copyright infringement. If he's simply providing affordable type badges for collectors, the least he should do is mark them as "COPY", "FAKE", "REPLICA", "NOT ORIGINAL" etc. Manufacturers of replicas like MrMac do a great diservice to honest collectors who have worked hard and paid good money to build a collection of originals. This post shows the confusion that new collectors have. Repros will kill interest in any hobby. That's my 2 cents!
Bob

#12 Bob Hudson

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 08:34 AM

This once again points out the danger of so many reproductions and why responsible makers should put mark their pieces as reproductions. Makers always use the excuse that they sell these as reproductions but once the pieces are shipped there are no such "protections."

This also raises the questions: why mark "Tiffany" on a low quality reproduction and what would be the legitimate reason for buying one of these? If you want a cheap looking set of wings to pin on an old uniform does it make any difference what is stamped on the back of it?

Add to that, the makers says "The wings that are shown are a replica of wings we believe were designed by Tiffany. "

"We believe????" They put fake "Tiffanys" on the market without even being sure that it is in fact a copy of a Tiffany?

The only reason I could think of why someone would pay the maker $60 for one of these is because they hope to defraud someone down the line. Sharp eyes will spot the difference, but someone is going to get suckered out of their money.

The makers of these kinds of counterfeits may be very nice guys, but they do a real disservice to the collecting community.

#13 DwightPruitt

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 01:03 PM

PS as stated I hope to help someone from buying this as a real wing and have contacted the seller with my concerns. I assume he does not know.



I've traded a couple of emails with the seller. He says he purchased the wings from a friend who has owned them since the 1960's. We'll see.

#14 Gary Cain

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 01:12 PM

Hi John,

No I don't. The only real Tiffany insignia I own is a pair of the Pattern 1912 silver Royal Flying Corps collar dogs.


Gary

Gary,



Would you happen to have a photo of the real one? I would like to save someone from buying this if I can.



John



#15 John Cooper

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 01:37 PM

Thanks Gary and Dwight.

If he does not want to pull the notice Dave H at the other forum suggested to post them for discussion... If you have an email from Joe saying those are his wings then you can post them as a reply.

I hate to think some person would try to ROB another collector... but if this is the case I will raise the issue. Unless you have already posted at GDC?

John

#16 John Cooper

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 01:52 PM

UPDATE:



I just checked GDC and the for sale thread has been removed so it looks like some pro-active collector watchdogs ;) saved someone a big hassle!!!



Now I only hope this guy does not try ot sell them someplace else...



John

#17 none

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 04:25 AM

This is a reproduction. Go to www.1903.com and you will find it. I know I made it. It is a copy molded from a real one and the Tiffany low qualitity hallmark as someone called it is the way the original was hallmarked.

Joe

#18 bobgee

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 09:03 AM

This is a reproduction. Go to www.1903.com and you will find it. I know I made it. It is a copy molded from a real one and the Tiffany low qualitity hallmark as someone called it is the way the original was hallmarked.

Joe


Joe..............Why don't you mark your repoductions as such, i.e. COPY, REPLICA, REPRO etc on the reverse. It would save folks a lot of grief.
Bobgee

#19 none

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 02:45 PM

Many of you will recognize the name Duncan Campbell, he advised me not to mark the wings repro. Here is why. The crooked dealers will remove or fill the mark and then it can't be a repro, it has be real. Instead I try and educate on what is real and what is not. All my wings are cast and with a few exceptions all insignia is die struck. I plan on showing how to spot repros and restrikes, its not easy sometimes and even the top honest dealers have no clue. I know when I go to SOS I get called over a lot to inspect wings and tell them if it is real or not. You would be surprised how many don't know. Also what many other forget is that any insignia has a life of 30 years. Lets say a pilot in WWI lost his wings and wanted a replacement 20 years later. Is that one real or not?
What we need is a federal law that everyone has to mark them repro, from wings to furniture. Write you Congressmen.

#20 kfields

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 12:02 PM

Your explanation as to why you don't mark it as being a reproduction is weak. If you had any real concern about some of your wares being sold as vintage pieces, you could at least make an attempt to mark them on the reverse.

Kim


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