Jason G Posted March 28, 2010 Share #1 Posted March 28, 2010 Just got this yesterday at the Flea Market. Looks to be 1870's 1880s? Not sure. What I do know is that they are Marines (you can see the Globe and Anchor on the covers!). The Marine to the left is a bugler. Not sure what the Marine on the right's weapon is...a Krag maybe? And no idea what the gun is behind them. (IF it is a gun). At extreme magnification you can see wording (probably a manufacturers name) but can't make it out. I thought it was a pretty neat find for 10 bucks, I just don't see these that often if ever. No idea on location. Obviously it's cold! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmcaviator Posted March 28, 2010 Share #2 Posted March 28, 2010 The Marines are wearing the pattern 1904 cap, so it puts your photo between 1904 and 1912. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason G Posted March 28, 2010 Author Share #3 Posted March 28, 2010 See? I had no earthly idea. Very cool. Thanks for that ID. (The guy I got it from saw my USMC hat and said "I've got a Marine picture you might want...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted March 28, 2010 Share #4 Posted March 28, 2010 Could be on the closer side to 1904 than 1912.....barracks look like either Washington or Charleston (Mass)....and given your location maybe Washington would be a strong case. Any photogragher ID? Correct on the Krag....I am guessing a Colt behind them....Also looks like the Field Music has a Sword (Musicans sword).....not something I've seen too often so IMHO rather unique...I cant see if the coat of the Krag bearer is SAW era model or just unbuttoned at the top...Alec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted March 28, 2010 Share #5 Posted March 28, 2010 The caps are late model 1897s. The Marine with the Krag is wearing what looks to be a single catch tunic which is the 1892 Regs. THe collar of the tunic has rounded edges and is only connected by one single catch at the base. The Krags came on board starting in 1900 so this should be in the 1900 to 1905 at latest time period. Yes it is a Colt 1895 potato digger in the background. Would love to know if it is chanmbered for the 6mm or the Krag ammo though as they had looked into converting them. The 1895 Colts were used even after they converted to the M1903 Springfiled rifle and were still carried on the USMC Books through WWI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason G Posted March 28, 2010 Author Share #6 Posted March 28, 2010 My first guess was the Potato digger from other pics I've seen so I'm happy to get that right! No, no id on this one at all, Dirk. I even blew up the image as best I could on my Mac to see if the windows reflected anything..the top right window appears to show some bare trees but nothing else. I did see the sword but didn't want to show my own ignorance by guessing it was a Field Musicians. Looking at the "Krag bearer's" coat under a magnifying glass, it appears to be buttoned at the top. Thanks for that information! I just need to figure out how to put it with the photo so they don't get separated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmcaviator Posted March 29, 2010 Share #7 Posted March 29, 2010 Alec, you may be right with the caps. Hard to tell with the flare and height of the tops. Here they are the span am era 1897 on left (which has a very flat and low appearance) and the pre 1912 model on right.(BROKEN LINK REMOVED) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted March 29, 2010 Share #8 Posted March 29, 2010 I think Alec nailed it on the uniform componets...thats why his book will be so eagerly awaited......the clue to location will come from the windows/brick work.....I'll try and match it to images in my collection but only have a few of the Charleston Barracks from that era....and if I am not mistaken the old Washington barracks were rebuilt several years after this image was taken. Again, I know the Music sword was seen in a number of images of the 19th century but I just dont think it was done too much in the 20th, so I think you have something interesting there....a bargin at 10.00! As for preserving the info with image....get a large archival envelop and a smaller one for the information and place the info into the small envelop and then inside the larger....thats how I have done it for some of my things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted March 29, 2010 Share #9 Posted March 29, 2010 BTW after seeing Mike's post it reminded me I've noticed the 97 cap got higher in profile and more flared through the production run as they moved closer to 1904 (at least that is what I've seen in photos from my collection)....and I've seen similar changes with the transition from 1904 to 1912 and in shape of the 1912 several years before the 22 pattern came out. In fact I have trouble telling the difference between some of the last forest green bell crowns and the newer pattern caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason G Posted March 29, 2010 Author Share #10 Posted March 29, 2010 Dirk, thanks! Looking at the photo with a magnifier the covers appear to be flatter and not as 'bell crown' as Aviator posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted March 29, 2010 Share #11 Posted March 29, 2010 The headear section was a nightmare to research due to slight changes in some Uniform Regs. I have a two pge spread that shows all patterns of caps from 1897 to 1937 so there is a comparison page(s) that show them next to each other. They each are described and show detail in the rest of the book on their own. One way o help narrow things down is look at the proximity of the EGA to the top of the crown. Note how close the eagle haed is in the photo and also Mike's examples. Usually always more distance on 1897 caps versus 1904s. 1917 caps however this clue sort of went out the door due to manufacturing variations. A great photo showing Marines with Krag, Colt 1895 and also an 1875 Musician's Sword. All hard to find let alone rarer with all in one shot. I would have easily paid $100 for the photo myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason G Posted March 29, 2010 Author Share #12 Posted March 29, 2010 Thanks to Aviator, Alec, and Dirk for giving me the history and information on this one. If you gentlemen will PM me your addresses I'd like to send something out to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted March 29, 2010 Share #13 Posted March 29, 2010 Great thread folks - SUPERB! s/f Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Andrews Posted March 29, 2010 Share #14 Posted March 29, 2010 IIRC per a discussion with a Quantico USMC museum spec/historian, the shapes of the 1897-1905 caps varied, in part, because some were private purchase items, made Stateside and even overseas. Hence the visor, chinstrap, and grommet for the EGA differed a bit. Further, he offered the observation that the REGs often were not illustrated or did not specify measurements, i.e. distance between grommet and top or shank. "Close enough" was usually "good enough". The real kicker is that, as the low-rise 1897 was disliked by Marine and sailor alike, the height of the cap top got higher. Next, the Marines (more than the sailors) liked to squash down the top rather than leave it vertical-sided. This amounted to a semi-belled top. That is, the bell came in, in part, due to popular demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustykamel Posted April 3, 2010 Share #15 Posted April 3, 2010 I have a dated photo on my website that pictures two 1904 field musics armed with swords. Hope that you enjoy it. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMaddoxUSMC Posted June 4, 2017 Share #16 Posted June 4, 2017 Jason, I wonder if you could get us a high resolution scan of this photo? If you can't post it due to file size, I can send you my email. Would love to see more detail! (: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMaddoxUSMC Posted June 4, 2017 Share #17 Posted June 4, 2017 And Jim - it looks like the link to your site doesn't work anymore? Was also hoping to see a better shot of your photo too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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