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Unknown Flintlock, Possible 1700s manufacture.


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#1 88thcollector

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:28 PM

Hi,

I am trying to identify this flintlock musket. I think it may be a French 1763 but it doesn't match the one I find illustrated exactly. Unfortunately I deleted the overall shot. There are no markings but there is pitting and the barrel has cleaned so the marks may have been removed.

Thanks for any help.

Steve
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#2 Dirteater101

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:59 AM

Have a carbine that has the smaller caliber, but has the similar barrel bands.

My vote is Danish, late production. 1812-15

#3 BEAST

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:35 AM

Were the brass bands and furniture used on the 1763? I thought they were steel.



*Note for folks wondering about the discussion of this firearm. The French 1763 along with the British Brown Bess were two of the primary arms used by American Colonial forces during the American Revolution. The later Springfield muskets took much of their design from the French musket.

#4 2Dogs

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:38 AM

IMHO I do F&I and Rev War and this look to be a newer made piece for reenacters, it looks way to clean and not beat up for being over 200 years old. If you are able to remove the barrel, it may have the maker's name on the bottom. Alot of these type weapons can be bought in kit form. Sorry I don't know what model this is.

#5 m1ashooter

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 12:21 PM

Nice musket and a great question. Looking through my Collectors Illustrated Encyclopedia Of The American Revolution by Neumann and Kravic the musket doesn't appear in my book. The nose band, lock, trigger guard and side plate are not the same as the French, Dutch and German muskets in my book. Many different people made muskets to arm our revolution so this could be hard to identify.

More pictures could help. Are the screws hand made or machine made? I also agree that this musket may be more modern. My 30 year old Brown Bess looks in worst condition then this musket. I've got some very good reference books on the American Revolution that might be of some help.

#6 Blair217

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 12:57 PM

Without a lot more pictures I would have to agree this is a reproduction,possibly custom made.French locks of that period are flat faced as are the hammers.The reinforced cock doesn't really go with that style of lockplate during that period.The stock looks English while the hardware has a French look.As was suggested take the screws and lock out and check to see if they look machine made or a name on the lock.The barrel may have a maker on the underside.It doesn't really resemble any of the F&I War or Revolutionary War muskets or carbines shown in Ahearn's Muskets of the Revolution and French and Indian War and other reference works.

Edited by Blair217, 03 March 2010 - 12:59 PM.


#7 vonrall

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:50 PM

It is an English style musket of the "India Pattern" , the open throat hammer was adopted in 1809 by the British Ordnance Dept (which is why it's not in Neumann , etc). However , the sideplate is not standard pattern. I would suggest you have one of the privately contracted ones either for UK militia or more likely one of their colonies in Africa or India which would explain the lack of markings. Barrel bands were not standard on these, so that may have been some type of later rework. Barrels on British arms were almost always pin fastened. Probably dates about 1815-30.

#8 88thcollector

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 04:30 AM

Thanks for all of the help. The India Pattern makes sense. The owner acquired it in the 1950's, making a repro unlikely. I was at the home to buy a Pennsylvania percussion fowler and they showed me this one also and I told them I would try to identify it for them.

Thanks to all.

Steve

#9 Dirteater101

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 05:26 AM

Doubt full it is an india pattern. Those big .75 cal beasties had pinned barrels. And were shorter than the standard short land service musket (brown bess). Whats the caliber? .75 or closer to .80. The "big boar" with brass fittings usually was done by Prussian arsenals and exported to some of the baltic states. Heck could even be one of those "Czar muskets" that no one has been able to id yet.

My fellow members are correct, the 1763 has a flat hammer, not rounded. The 1777 model has a rounded hammer (yet brass pan) like this one dose, but the india pattern musket also has the similar hammer.

Come on people, it has been obviously cleaned. Look at the wire wheel marks on the lock plate! Was probably done quite some time ago, when the old flinters were not worth much....

Sorry, I refinish and analyze firearms for a living.. Although it not be a good one...

Edited by Dirteater101, 04 March 2010 - 05:43 AM.


#10 88thcollector

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:59 AM

Doubt full it is an india pattern. Those big .75 cal beasties had pinned barrels. And were shorter than the standard short land service musket (brown bess). Whats the caliber? .75 or closer to .80. The "big boar" with brass fittings usually was done by Prussian arsenals and exported to some of the baltic states. Heck could even be one of those "Czar muskets" that no one has been able to id yet.

My fellow members are correct, the 1763 has a flat hammer, not rounded. The 1777 model has a rounded hammer (yet brass pan) like this one dose, but the india pattern musket also has the similar hammer.

Come on people, it has been obviously cleaned. Look at the wire wheel marks on the lock plate! Was probably done quite some time ago, when the old flinters were not worth much....

Sorry, I refinish and analyze firearms for a living.. Although it not be a good one...



To my untrained eye, it is a few hundred dollar decorative wall hanger? It is positively period but, like you said, it has been brushed and buffed and probably seen a little naval jelly.
Fortunately, the tiger maple rifle I wanted is untouched. The owner resisted the buffing urge. Common enough but good looking.

steve

#11 Blair217

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 02:48 AM

Another consideration on a gun like this,back then they didn't throw stuff away.This could have been an assemblage of parts restocked in the period.One thing to look at,does the stock look like American walnut.It really doesn't look "clubby"enough for a German or Dutch musket.The front band almost looks like it might have been a double band cut in half.Not really enough pictures of all the details.Some of this gun looks French some English.

Edited by Blair217, 05 March 2010 - 02:50 AM.


#12 88thcollector

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 06:17 AM

Hi,

Boy, this is more complicated than I thought and I just offered them some free advice, always dangerous. I will see if I can get another look at it and better photos.
The stock is walnut but I think it is circassian rather than American but it is impossible to tell 100% without a wood test. Circassian tends to be alittle more purplish and this is.

Steve

#13 vonrall

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:56 PM

It's not a STRAIGHT India pattern musket , it's a non regulation commercial version that has been bastardized at some point with barrel bands. I have collected 18th Century British firearms for over 40 years so am pretty well versed in those.

Here is a closeup of the regulation version of the 1809 India Pattern musket lock. The French locks have brass pans while the English stuck with iron.

http://www.historica...5_copy.jpg.html

#14 albatrosdva

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 04:36 PM

It has a side plate like the 1796 pattern heavy dragoon carbine. Probably a modified Napoleonic Wars carbine of some flavor




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