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M1912 "S.N. MEYER, WASH'N, D.C." BARRACKS COVER


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Another rather unusual hallmark found is that of the firm of S.N. Meyer, Washington, D.C.. This M1912 service cover or hat emblem is simply stamped, S.N. MEYER, WASH'N DC in the shape of an oval.

 

This hallmark is not to be confused or associated with that of N.S. Meyer, New York, NY, which was an entirely different firm. The only information I have been able to find on the S.N. Meyer firm of Washington, D.C. is that it stopped operations and closed it's factory in 1935.

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They were more than an emblem maker. Post Civil war they were identified as

 

S.N. Meyer Military & Society Goods. 1411 Penna Ave. N.W. Wash. D.C

 

I have found information about them making swords, visor caps and even fancy admiral's dress hats, Capitol police cap ornaments, buttons, etc. One source says the S.N. MEYER mark was used on buttons from 1890-1925, but it appears they may have been in business as far back as the Civil War.

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teufelhunde.ret

This is one rare bird... w00t.gif Until Gary shared this emblem with me a PM some weeks ago, I never knew S.N. Meyer produced EGA's... let alone they even existed. It follows the pre-war (WW1) period of design and pattern development, and is (among) the first of the following generations with "applied continents".

 

In the only modern day reference (Orgel's) in Moran's book, S.N. Meyer was not even listed as a manufacturer of the globe & anchor !!!!!! One rare bird... thumbsup.gif

 

Gary, BTW... did they ever produce (or have you seen) a set of collar emblems?

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They were also known as "Meyer's Military Shop" and seemed to produce a lot of items for military officers but did have known government contracts for the Capitol Police and did prototype designs for National Park Service badges.

 

I suspect this was a high end custom shop that did one offs (although they may have produced a fair amount of swords and buttons). This may have been the kind of place where young men of means bound for military service could stop in with a letter of credit from daddy's bank and get outfitted head to toe and if the young man needed something out of the ordinary (such as an EGA) they might have had their jewelers make one.

 

I found a third address for them in this abstract of a 1915 ad in the Washington Post:

 

TENTS

We make all kinds for Canoeing, Camping, Lawns.

Meyer's Military Shops, Outdoor Equipage.

1327 F St. N. W.

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Bob - I think you made a good call with WWI era. This is exactly how I acquired it, with what appears to be a WWI era Army collar disc roller and clipped screw post. This would suggest o/s cap wear to me, which, as we all know, didn't start until the WWI period in France. If we can date the roller, we might have a fairly accurate wear date, though?

 

Darrell - I haven't seen marked collar emblems by this firm, but I wonder if they could be some of the unmarked collar varieties that are attributed to the Gaunt firm? The eagle pattern on this emblem is pretty close to the Gaunt design, so it makes me wonder?

 

Bob (F.S.) - Where on earth did you find that amount of information on the S.N. Meyer firm? The only reference I have been able to find was from the Civil War button reference, American Military Button Makers And Dealers; Their Backmarks & Dates by Wm. F. McGuinn and Bruce S. Bazelon.

 

Gary

 

A few images of the roller and clipped screw post.

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teufelhunde.ret

Do you suppose think.gif this emblem was made by Gaunt for them with their hallmark (as Gaunt was known to manufacture for others). Perhaps S.N. Meyers was a leading supplier to the various Barracks Cap manufactures (or tailors for that matter) of the period and saw it to be easier to have them produced under their hallmark? Conjecture... long shot?

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I found it all on Google.

 

Some new information makes me wonder whether some of the stuff with the SN MEYER mark was not "private branded", i.e. made by someone else and stamped with their brand.

 

As noted above, the SN MEYER used the mark "S.N. Meyer Military & Society Goods" and tonight I did a search for the term "Military & Society Goods" and found other companies which also used that. "Society Goods" refers to items for groups such as Knights Templar that wear pseudo military uniforms, swords, etc.

 

These types of companies were also called "the regalia houses." One notable company was "Pettibone Military & Society Goods" which also went by Pettibone Mfg. and other variations. As with SN MEYER, the sold swords, military buttons and other items with their name on them, including those later 19th century hats worn by the private societies and US navy admirals: Another such company was M.C. Lilley Military Society Goods.

 

Lilley and Pettibone went on the become very successful with the lodge regalia business, but I have to wonder if each of these companies did in fact have have the in-house capacity to actually make the variety of uniforms, head gear and accessories they sold or did they have sources - especially European ones - who would make things with their brand on it? I know there was private branding in WWII when things such as officers visor caps would be sold with the brand name of a high end clothing store in them and as far back as the Civil War companies such as W.H. Horstmann & Sons were importing swords from Germany and putting their own marks on them.

 

That makes me wonder then if the SN MEYER EGA could have had origins elsewhere? If you're a British company making US military insignia would you seek out a re-seller in the US? It would have been no trouble to strike a few with the re-sellers marks.

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I was writing and researching the above post when teufelhunde.ret made the post just above mine and did not see his until I finished mine. I'm glad to see we've raised the same question. I don't think SN MEYER was a leading supplier but if so, they just did not leave a very big footprint. I suspect that they ultimately did not do well in the lodge regalia business - the "Society Goods" - and that their sideline of private purchase military uniforms and accessories was not big enough either to sustain them.

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teufelhunde.ret

That is quite a coincidence, both of us working the same topic. Gary, I suspect we can move beyond the realm of inconclusive, incomplete evidence and or guesswork regarding this emblem. think.gif If this emblem as supported in the preceding post was "private banded" (again I think we are beyond the realm of conjecture), The appearance of the eagle, as shown, does lead me to believe JR Gaunt was making these Cap Emblems. But again that I suppose this to is only supposition, as we have no certain evidence that took place.

 

Your thoughts?

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Darrell,

 

I guess anything is possible? Here is a Gaunt pattern EGA that is close in appearance to the Meyer emblem, and even though they are similar, there are enough differences, at least to me, to suggest two completely different makers.

 

If you notice, the Gaunt eagle and anchor are integral to the globe, being all one piece; the Meyer eagle and anchor are attached. While the birds do look similar, there are enough differences to suggest different makers. Meyer has incised maker's marks and Gaunt's are embossed. Would Gaunt go to the trouble of making completely different dies for branded emblems or did they replicate their own emblems and put someone else's name to them? The "Made In England" emblems that are assumed to be Gaunt also have incised marks, so I guess anything is possible with what Gaunt actually made? Another point to ponder? Because the one-piece, as in stamped eagle, anchor and globe are fairly uncommon in officer quality emblems and it is apparent Gaunt made them this way, are the M1908 "Ellis" one-piece cover and collar emblems also a Gaunt product? How's that for a brainteaser? Unless one of the M1908's has been refinished with paint, the metal is always that reddish-brown bronze to chocolate bronze color so often associated with early British Commonwealth emblems. With many of these earlier emblems, there always seem to be more questions than answers, but hopefully with the Internet and more interest in this subject, some will be answered.

 

s/f, Gary

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teufelhunde.ret

w00t.gif as always you catch me flat-footed, a beautiful emblem. Let me guess from RobertE's collection? I have noted this apparently has applied continents, likely making this one of the first (of this period) Have you concluded when it was produced? (I suspect 1904/12 period?) Does it have matching collars?

 

As for the brainteaser, I think one can draw a parallel and conclude Gaunt did make allot of emblems for others. From their locations in Europe, New York, and Washington they may very well have of produced...... well that's a guesstimate. As well, we know thru examination certain essential configurations were common (better said, nearly identical?) among most, but with 3 manufacturing location (that we know of) one would conclude each location would have their own diemaker - AKA jeweler? who would have the responsibilities of design, production and producing new dies as old ones wore out. So I believe it can deduced from the various emblem examples. Each site (jeweler) had some degree of authority and autonomy when creating these emblems. Therefore some of the subtle nuances that can be identified, very likely come from the individual manufacturing sites. And thus we can draw upon those characteristics to identify non-hallmarked varieties. Perhaps why we see so many "Made in England", is it conjecture to think they kept the trade name off those and placed their trade name only on those made in the US?

 

I cannot resist using your quote in closing " With many of these earlier emblems, there always seem to be more questions than answers, but hopefully with the Internet and more interest in this subject, some will be answered. "

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... I have noted this apparently has applied continents, likely making this one of the first (of this period) Have you concluded when it was produced? (I suspect 1904/12 period?)

 

Darrell,

 

Because the hallmark on the Gaunt emblem is the same as that found on their emblems throughout the 1920's, 1930's and 1940's, it's a hard call without having it in hand, but my guess is 1920's or even 1930's?

 

Here is another example from my collection that is of the same basic pattern as the Meyer and Gaunt emblems. I'm sure this emblem will have your head spinning in confusion as soon as you look at it. I'm not so sure that these pre-1937 pattern emblems can be dated as per Steven Orgel's assumptions of applied vs. non applied continents, cut-out vs. non cut-out Gulf of Mexico, etc. In other words, don't try and automatically put a date to an emblem by these characteristics. The dates referred to are Model or Pattern dates and not actual manufacture dates. I also noticed in his reference section that when an emblem is unmarked, he usually cites Gemsco as the maker, and if the pattern doesn't exactly fit with Gemsco, he cites Gaunt, which to me is confusing at the least and can also be very misleading to collectors. There were plenty of EGA emblem makers besides those two that didn't always mark their emblems.

 

Take this example for instance. Everything suggests early, early according to Orgel's definition, but is it? The continents are stamped, not applied, semi Gulf of Mexico cut-out, looped vs. fouled rope, same basic eagle pattern as the marked Meyer and marked Gaunt emblems, but then look at the finish, the anchor and the roller on this. The finish is identical to what is found on post-1937 H&H and in some cases, H&H-Imperial marked emblems and as far as my recollections go, this finish hasn't been observed or encountered on emblems prior to the 1930's. The roller is the same type found on post-1937 H&H emblems and the anchor design is exactly the same as that found on post 1937 H&H emblems. I believe Steven Orgel shows a very similar emblem in Fig. 32 of his reference and states that it is unmarked, but was most likely made by Gaunt because it resembles a Gemsco emblem. It is my belief that the emblem I am posting is of the 1908 or 1912 pattern, but was most likely made sometime in the 1930's by Hillborn and Hamburger. It is also my strong belief and opinion that many officer quality emblems made in the 1920's and 1930's are often confused with emblems made much earlier in the century.

 

s/f,

Gary

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  • 4 months later...
teufelhunde.ret

Upon seeing this post fron Dave on a 1912 cover: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=12649&hl= my attention of course was automatically drawn to the EGA depicted here and to recalling this thread that began months ago. The similarities between the two are remarkable. In Gary last post... questions arose about fixing a date to some EGA's and this emblem & thread my help in identifying a period. The one shown here has a wonderful brown finish and am drawn to the character of the early eagle. Appears the only difference is the method of wrapping the rope around the anchor stock. Otherwise continents, anchor & eagle are literally identical......

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