Jump to content


Photo

Wrong year buddy--Model 1917 vs. Model 1918 Trench Knife Nomenclature?


  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 shocktrooper15

shocktrooper15
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,086
  • 385 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA

Posted 25 January 2010 - 03:06 PM

http://www.gunbroker...?Item=155298398

Hahahaha he has not done his research. He describes it twice as 1918

Edited by Charlie Flick, 30 January 2010 - 11:28 AM.


#2 ClaptonIsGod

ClaptonIsGod
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,251
  • 2,515 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:MA

Posted 25 January 2010 - 03:39 PM

Can you please explain to us non knive junkies why it is so bad? It appears to be stamped 1918 on the handle, and you didn't say why it isn't necessarily right? thanks for clearing this up.

#3 37thguy

37thguy

    Member

  • Members
    • Member ID: 729
  • 7,768 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NW Ohio

Posted 25 January 2010 - 03:52 PM

Can you please explain to us non knive junkies why it is so bad? It appears to be stamped 1918 on the handle, and you didn't say why it isn't necessarily right? thanks for clearing this up.


I agree, how about the rest of the story?

#4 bayonetman

bayonetman

    MODERATOR

  • IN MEMORIAM
    • Member ID: 66
  • 2,163 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Virginia, USA

Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:18 PM

Unless someone has recently found some documentation that I am unaware of, the trench knife shown could be either the Model 1917 or Model 1918. There has been a lot of speculation as to which is which of the two patterns. Frank Trzaska in his Knife World article M1917-1918 Trench Knives (April 1999, reprinted in Military Knives, A Reference Book) makes a good argument for this type being the Model 1918. However, he admits this is educated speculation, not based on Ordnance documentation.

Do you have some documentation that shows this version as the Model 1917 instead of 1918?

Top is flanged guard version, this one by American Cutlery Co (ACC) while the lower is the pyramid knob style by Landers, Frary and Clark (LF&C). But I am not sure which is 1917 and which is 1918. Both of these are dated 1917.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/bayonetman/Knives/World%20War%20One/M1917a.jpg

#5 ClaptonIsGod

ClaptonIsGod
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,251
  • 2,515 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:MA

Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:22 PM

Unless someone has recently found some documentation that I am unaware of, the trench knife shown could be either the Model 1917 or Model 1918. There has been a lot of speculation as to which is which of the two patterns. Frank Trzaska in his Knife World article M1917-1918 Trench Knives (April 1999, reprinted in Military Knives, A Reference Book) makes a good argument for this type being the Model 1918. However, he admits this is educated speculation, not based on Ordnance documentation.

Do you have some documentation that shows this version as the Model 1917 instead of 1918?

Top is flanged guard version, this one by American Cutlery Co (ACC) while the lower is the pyramid knob style by Landers, Frary and Clark (LF&C). But I am not sure which is 1917 and which is 1918. Both of these are dated 1917.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/bayonetman/Knives/World%20War%20One/M1917a.jpg


So it could be entirely right?

#6 ClaptonIsGod

ClaptonIsGod
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,251
  • 2,515 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:MA

Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:31 PM

Knife in question (for future reference)

kiq.jpg

#7 19leatherneck68

19leatherneck68
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,147
  • 84 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wisconsin US of A

Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:55 PM

300px_Model1917_knuckle_duster.jpg

U.S. M1917 "Knuckle Duster" trench knife and leather sheath of World War I per Wikipedia.

#8 37thguy

37thguy

    Member

  • Members
    • Member ID: 729
  • 7,768 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NW Ohio

Posted 25 January 2010 - 05:12 PM

I always thought they were WW1? :think:

#9 jgawne

jgawne
  • Inactive
    • Member ID: 1,657
  • 3,048 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Outside Boston USA

Posted 29 January 2010 - 05:47 PM

1. Logic

They are production varients of the same basic item. They are not two different designs.
The first ones were adopted in 1917. They were Ordnance items. Ordnance named things by date of adoption. Hence even if not techincally called a 1917, that would be the proper nomenclature.


2. Common sense.

Every darn source save crazed die hard knive fanatics arguing amoung themsleves is going to call it a 1917. And an M1910 pack made in 1918is still an M10 even though it was made in a different year and has slightly different construction.


However, I don't see it as a big enough problem to deserve to be mentioned, unless the guy claimed to be the master guru of knives. In which case I might worry.

#10 bayonetman

bayonetman

    MODERATOR

  • IN MEMORIAM
    • Member ID: 66
  • 2,163 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Virginia, USA

Posted 29 January 2010 - 06:23 PM

Although not an official source, the following is quoted from Benedict Crowell (Assistant Secretary of War, Director of Munitions) in his book published in 1919, America's Munitions 1917-1918

"A new weapon which had come into use during the great war as part of the soldier's individual equipment was the trench knife. ......The design submitted by Henry Disston & Sons, of Philadelphia, received the most favorable consideration. This knife was manufactured and known as Model 1917. (This was the version with the bent out flanges from the guard as made by Disston, Oneida and American Cutlery). ....... This knife was slightly changed as regards handle and given a different guard to protect the man's knuckles, and was known as Model 1918. (This is the pyramidal knob version by Landers. Frary and Clark)

Therefore, from this source (which should be at least reasonably credible due to his wartime position) the knife in the auction is the Model 1918 and is correctly described.

I agree that it is hardly worth arguing about, as I am sure that Ordnance issued these knives without regard to the exact model, probably as the Model 1917. There is just enough difference between them (mostly in the method of attaching the tang to the guard, screw on vs peened) that it may be that for possible repair parts or contract designations they felt a need for two different Model numbers.

#11 cwnorma

cwnorma
  • Members
    • Member ID: 594
  • 2,291 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 January 2010 - 07:03 PM

Even though Wikipedia can be a good quick source of information, it can also be a minefield of mis- or incomplete information (citation needed). This is a good instance of why universities wont accept Wikipedia as a source...

Unfortunately, even the official publications are unclear when it comes to this knife.

Much less clear is whether or not the knife with the pyramidal protrusions is the M1918, or the M1917. The "bible" of WW1 ordnance, America's Munitions relates that there are two distinct knives, M1917 and M1918, but does not really make clear which is which:


m191718.jpg


Edited by cwnorma, 30 January 2010 - 09:40 AM.


#12 cwnorma

cwnorma
  • Members
    • Member ID: 594
  • 2,291 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 January 2010 - 07:04 PM

What is certain is that the nomenclature for the brass handled, knuckle knife is the M1918 Mark 1:

m1918mk1.jpg



#13 cwnorma

cwnorma
  • Members
    • Member ID: 594
  • 2,291 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 January 2010 - 07:19 PM

Adding to the confusion, the Landers Frary and Clark knives (with the peened tang and pyramidal studs; the best candidate to be the M1918 knife) are all marked:


U.S.
L.F.&C.
1917



While the Henry Disston (flanged-screw tang) knives are marked:


U.S.
H.D.&S.
1918



... and the Onieda Community (flanged-screw tang) knives are marked:


U.S.
O.C.L.
1918



Finally, just to add insult to injury the American Cutlery version (also flanged-screw tang) is marked:


A.C.COU.S.A.1917


Edited by cwnorma, 29 January 2010 - 07:20 PM.


#14 bayonetman

bayonetman

    MODERATOR

  • IN MEMORIAM
    • Member ID: 66
  • 2,163 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Virginia, USA

Posted 29 January 2010 - 07:31 PM

In my OPINION, the remark in America's Munitions makes it clear from his point of view.

Crowell says: "The design submitted by Henry Disston & Sons, of Philadelphia, received the most favorable consideration. This knife was manufactured and known as Model 1917.

The Disston design used the flange guard. Therefore, according to Crowell, it is the Model 1917.

I fully agree the dates are both misleading and confusing. I believe both were designed in late 1917 and the different Model dates were for Ordnance contract and stock use, while the dates on the knives indicate when the maker actually began production. But that is, at the best, a guess.

#15 cwnorma

cwnorma
  • Members
    • Member ID: 594
  • 2,291 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 January 2010 - 07:34 PM

There is one final theory (although I have only found a few who thought so) with respect to this particular passage in Crowell:

m191718A.jpg


There is a very scarce version of the Landers Frary and Clark knife that has 8 pyramidal knobs, instead of the usual seven.

The theory being that the change "to protect the users knuckles" was the elimination of this extra pyramid in order to keep the soldiers from smashing their fingers when sheathing the knife.

I personally just believe this just to be a manufacturing variation, or possibly early model; but it makes for interesting conversation with knife buffs! :w00t:

#16 SKIPH

SKIPH

    FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,773
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NC

Posted 30 January 2010 - 07:28 AM

Hey Gang! In light of all this good research info, put forward at one time. I now see my flanged OCL, and pyramid LF&C in an entirely new way. It makes more sense. The LF&C is the more updated, stream lined, time and cost cutting, step eliminating version. Cool! I think I was wrapped around the 1918 stampings too much also. THX SKIP

#17 normaninvasion

normaninvasion
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,253
  • 2,430 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:new york

Posted 30 January 2010 - 07:42 AM

Really valuable info here :thumbsup: As I have some interest in possibly picking up a couple examples in the future and was quite confused by the dating. Maybe this could be pinned?

#18 bobgee

bobgee

    MODERATOR

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 503
  • 6,015 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 30 January 2010 - 07:49 AM

Good exchange of information on these knives. Lots to be learned. BUT why was it posted in "FAKES & REPRODUCTIONS" ? These is nothing to suggest that the seller was offerring a fake or a repro. This needs to be moved to the Knife & Edged Weapon section. Bobgee

I have moved it. Bob

Edited by bobgee, 30 January 2010 - 07:56 AM.


#19 Charlie Flick

Charlie Flick

    MODERATOR

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 68
  • 2,552 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sunny Florida, USA

Posted 30 January 2010 - 11:30 AM

Bob:

I think it was a good idea to move it. I also just edited the title of the thread to more clearly reflect the thrust of the entire thread and to assist future searchers.

Regards,
Charlie

#20 bobgee

bobgee

    MODERATOR

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 503
  • 6,015 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 30 January 2010 - 02:39 PM

Bob:

I think it was a good idea to move it. I also just edited the title of the thread to more clearly reflect the thrust of the entire thread and to assist future searchers.

Regards,
Charlie


Roger that! Bob

#21 shocktrooper15

shocktrooper15
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,086
  • 385 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA

Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:13 AM

post='482030']

Sorry for not being clear and not replying till now. The knife is described as a model 1918 however the Model 1918 is a brass knuckle knife. The one he listed is a Model 1917 knife differed by the blade shape, skull crusher, and knuckle configuration along with other components. I agree entirely with jgawne. I guess it all depends on what perspective one has.

Edited by shocktrooper15, 31 January 2010 - 10:17 AM.


#22 cwnorma

cwnorma
  • Members
    • Member ID: 594
  • 2,291 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 January 2010 - 04:33 PM

shocktrooper15,

I think you missed something. If you go back and read all the posts in this thread, you will find that there are actually two wood handled, "D" guard trench knives. One is the M1917, and one is the M1918. Unfortunately, exactly which one is which is yet to be discovered in official ordnance publications.

The bronze (brass) handle knife you are referring to, is actually properly known as the M1918 Mark 1, and is listed as such in ordnance specifications.

So the knife in the auction is indeed either a M1917 or a M1918 trench knife.

Edited by cwnorma, 31 January 2010 - 04:36 PM.


#23 shocktrooper15

shocktrooper15
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,086
  • 385 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA

Posted 31 January 2010 - 05:31 PM

[quote name='cwnorma' date='Jan 31 2010, 07:33 PM' post='483084']

cwnorma,

Yes now that I read more closely I see that there are two kinds. I apoligize for making a fast asssumption. I will do MY research before posting.


2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users