AEF Service Coat (1915) 3rd Div., Spec. 1160

[cpatrick]

This is my most recent WWI uniform acquisition. This one has the unusual distinction of being dated 1915, which, from my experience, is a not so common date. The collar disc is for Company C, of the 4th Infantry Regiment. Patch is flawless. The uniform also has a silver "Marksman" pinback device, which is usually assocoated with the Marine Corps. Another quality that I like with this uniform is the quality of of the wool. Though it is "winter-weight", it is much more soft and velvety that most of these type uniforms. Any idea's about the badge? (Other than being added post war)

 

Chris

[cpatrick]

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[cpatrick]

...

[CNY Militaria]

Nice coat! Where did it come from? The Army used those marksman badges as well back in the day as far as I know.

 

Justin

[ken1967]

Nice uniform!

 

If you ever want it to go to a good home where it can hang out all day with other 3ID uniforms, let me know

[cwnorma]

Chris,

 

Where did you get that idea?

 

The USMC adopted the Army's system of marksmanship recognition (I think in 1916--someone please correct me if I got the date wrong). The only reason you might associate these marksman badges with the Marines is because the USMC emphasized marksmanship so much that they had extremely high numbers of men who earned these badges. Some reports have as many as half of the enlisted men in the 5th Brigade qualified for one of the various levels of marksmanship; Marksman, Sharpshooter, or Expert Rifleman.

 

Uniforms made prior to 1917 tend to be made of very high grade wool material. That is proper for a coat made in 1915.

 

Chris

 

 

...The uniform also has a silver "Marksman" pinback device, which is usually assocoated with the Marine Corps.

...it is much more soft and velvety that most of these type uniforms. Any idea's about the badge? (Other than being added post war)

[cpatrick]

Thanks guys! The uniform came from a dealer in Alaska. As far as the "MARKSMAN" badge goes, one of my sources lists this device as a Marine Corps badge. I know, however, that reference sources are never concrete. I will site the source if I can find the book. You wouldn't think that I would use a bookshelf, would you?? LOL

 

Chris

[CNY Militaria]

I also have a marksman badge just like this in an Army National Guard Border Service Grouping.

[cpatrick]

So Army it is. Or perhaps we could just refer to it as a generic US military marksman badge, since both branches used it. Just so my post didn't sound misleading, I never meant that it was used exclusively by the USMC, but rather predominantly by that branch. The book that I cited is, I believe, "Military Badges & Insignia". Nonetheless, it is good to know that the army used these as well.

 

Chris

[bayonetman]

The Marksman bar was used by both Marines and Army in the pre WW1 to 1923 when the Army changed their system.

 

The comment about the Marines emphasising shooting is illustrated in the photo of my Great-Uncle George Green (Co. B, 13th Marine Regiment) with some of his platoon taken in 1919 probably at Camp Pontanezen. Note there are only two of the 8 not displaying a Marksmanship badge.

 

[cwnorma]

Chris,

 

Lets see if I can head this one off at the pass:

 

If your reference is from after the 1920s, then it would be correct in calling that a USMC marksman badge. The Army, revamped it's marksmanship programs in the 20s and changed the badges to thier current configuration/design. The Marines continued to use the old Army pattern badges, and do so (with slight modifications) to this day.

 

However, for a WW1 uniform, that marksman badge is correct for an Army soldier.

 

Additionally, these Marksman Badges came in two varieties; silver and bronze. Silver was supposed to be for Regular Army soldiers, and Bronze was for National Guard Soldiers. Although the material differed, the badge designs (and the courses to qualify) were the same. Also during the war, it didn't seem to matter and regulars were sometimes issued bronze badges and guardsmen sometimes silver.

 

The basic badges were:

 

- Expert Rifleman

- Pistol Expert

- Sharpshooter

- Pistol Sharpshooter

- Marksman

- Pistol Marksman

 

Additionally, there were badges for:

- Pistol Shot First Class

- Marksman A (Short Course "A" for Coast Artillery men)

 

Some militia organizations also used similar badges:

- First Class

- Second Class

 

Other state organizations used designs unique to their organizations.

 

Variations exist of the pistol marksman with crossed 1909 Revolvers and 1911 automatics. Variations of the Expert Rifleman badge exist with crossed Krag rifles, crossed 1903 Springfields, and Crossed 1917 rifles. All WW1 (and before) era marksmanship badges will be pin backed, and will have either a simple catch, early safety catch, or a "drop-in" safety catch. Pins made before about 1910 will often have a "T" hinge. Only Bailey Banks and Biddle badges made from 1918 to about 1922 will have a "rollover" safety catch. The USMC began putting a small EGA on the apex of the crossed rifles on the Expert Rifleman Badge in the 1920s.

Expert badges made after WW2 will have crossed Garand rifles.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

Thanks guys! The uniform came from a dealer in Alaska. As far as the "MARKSMAN" badge goes, one of my sources lists this device as a Marine Corps badge. I know, however, that reference sources are never concrete. I will site the source if I can find the book. You wouldn't think that I would use a bookshelf, would you?? LOL

 

Chris

[QED4]

The Regular Army and the USMC used these badges (three grades for rifle and three for pistol and three for revolver) in silver and the National Guard used the same badges but in bronze.

[cpatrick]

Chris,

 

That is some excellent information! I was beginning to doubt myself, but it seems as though it just depends on which era we are looking at it from. I really appreciate it!

 

Chris

[GIl Sanow]

Chris,

 

That is some excellent information! I was beginning to doubt myself, but it seems as though it just depends on which era we are looking at it from. I really appreciate it!

 

Chris

 

PLease note that because this coat was made on a Sigmund Eisner 1915 contract, this does not mean that it was delivered in 1915 -- it could have been much later

The 4th Infantry was a Regular Army unit, so this fellow may have been wearling an earlier issue, or something in the supply system from before.