Pearl Harbor

[48MMS]

I would like some of the more experienced historians on this site to chime in on this, concerning the court martial of Billy Mitchell. In the movie (and I realize Hollywood exaggerates just a bit!) Mitchell talks about a scenerio were ships and aircraft from an Asian country launch a surprise attack on US Naval forces in Hawaii or the Western US. Something to that extent, I may be off, but to the tone of what did happen at Peral Harbor. Knowing too that Yamamoto was studying in the US, possibly during that time frame, would it be possible that the idea for a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor may in fact be a US one? Could Mitchell have planted a seed during his trial?

I would like people who are far more knowing than I to weigh in. Personally I feel Roosevelt knew about it about it and wanted something that would unite the US people. I think he knew at some point we would get involved, but needed all factions to be united unlike we'd later see in Vietnam and other wars. Such a terrible attack would do just that. A history teacher of mine once said that Countries with power, like America want war citing the incidents in the North Atlantic were German U-boats sank several US ships. Prior to Pearl Harbor these "accidents" were dealt with strong diplomatic language. Maybe enough was enough or maybe that teacher has a valid point. I think Roosevelt knew the awesome capability of American industry and knew he could bring us totally out of the depression and make us the powerful nation we are today. All at the cost of Pearl Harbor. And my apologies if I sound cold, however looking at the incedible lapses of security on December 7th, 1941, one really has to wonder. . . a coverup or just shotty thinking in times of heighten tension.

And despite my feelings on why Pearl Harbor happened, it does NOT distract from my appreciation for those who gave their lives and those who fought agianst the overwhelming odds so people like us could sit here and discuss a wide range of topics. To all Military members of all vintages, I salute you!

[Gregory]

Hello,

 

Does anybody suggest conspiracy theory that President Roosevelt wanted global war and waited for it impatiently?

 

Nothing indicates that the USA wanted one more world war because America was almost totally unprepared for such a war. If you want to have multi-million armed forces to fight against other continents you have to have food for your soldiers, military equipment, uniforms and buttons for these uniforms -- look at the battle between Hitler and USA of Brazilian cotton. Prepared for global war America would have never been forced to fight against Hitler of Brazilian cotton.

 

Before WWII only the US Navy was relatively prepared for global war. If you have Cavalry instead of modern tanks, as Hitler had, then you sit at home and do not think about world wars. If you do not have any strategic plans of mass education and training of military pilots then you sit at home and do not think about world wars.

 

Look at the fact when, how much late, President FDR signed all the documents to set up the CPTP. Such national programs, as American CPTP, operated very well in Germany, Poland and Soviet Union since early- or mid-1930s and were highly effective but those three countries knew very well that one more world war was coming. American CPTP was seriously delayed and was effective only partially, to some extent only and in selected aspects. There was permanent shortage of transport pilots in the US military aviation and it means that America has never prepared itself for global war. As it is wisely written in The Officer's Guide (1942 edition, page 251) "We are fighting a war of logistics". Such a sentence, as quoted, could be wise in 1942 when the US military opinion leaders and decision makers saw what happened around them, i.e. in overseas fronts, but before Pearl Harbor nobody in the USA prepared your country for global war from military logistics point of view.

 

Best regards

 

Greg

[MAW]

It's silly to suggest a conspiracy theory regarding Pearl Harbor, IMHO.

 

You can say that the war was inevitable; that FDR ignored warning signs; that some officers predicted a similar attack; etc. All of which are true to an extent, but no president would want to sacrifice 3,000+ men if they had a choice.

[48MMS]

Yes, I agree nobody wanted or was prepared for what was to become WWII. My suggestion was that Roosevelt was smart enough to know that somehow, someday we would get dragged into it. So rather than have us go to war with factions against the effort, it would be beneficial to have a rallying point that all Americans could point to. Look at 9-11, this horrible tradegy did unite us as a Nation as well as providing a wake up call for all to heed. I see no difference in Pearl Harbor. On December 7th, 1941, we were attacked in the most savage way and in the eyes of Americans we would rise from the ashes and defeat this wretched enemy to include the cancer of Nazi Germany. I was more interested in an expert(s) view on Billy Mitchell. Is it that far fetched to conceive that he may have planted the seed for Pearl Harbor when he was lobbying for the importance of Air Power. To me the only interesting thing about war is the decisions of our so called leaders, no matter what side. When reading about the Battle of Britain for example, it is suggested that the Battle turned on one persons mistake. A bomb was let go by mistake(?) over a civilian part of London. Up until then Germany had been focusing on military targets only. Per the book, the Battle of Britain, the British in retalliation sent a flight of Blenheim bombers to attack Berlin. All were destroyed. The act though incited Goering to convince Hitler to attack Britain's cities. Remember he had claimed that NO enemy bombers would fly over Berlin. This change of tactics allowed Fighter Command and the Radar sites to recover and the rest is "history". One person's decision. Roosevelt in the end made the right call, but at a cost that is simply hideous.

 

Note: I am not one who digs into scandals or conspiracy theories. I find interest in the twists and parallels in history. I feel you can learn more there. If you can trace back the faults, you may prevent a similar incident in the future. The saying that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it is VERY true indeed. For what it is worth and the historical inaccuracies not withstanding, the movie "Tora,Tora,Tora!" shows us how even the smartest men and women can lead us down a path of destruction.

[48MMS]

MAW, I would say that any President will make any sacrifice for the greater good of this Country. Even 3000. My opinion, and from my own personal experiences in the Air Force, there is nothing that would change that opinion.

[hawkdriver]

Take Pearl Harbor out of the title and put 9/11 in and this is the same argument, sacrifice 2,000 for the greater good of a war to end terrorism. Don't buy the 9/11 conspiracy theory, definitely don't buy PH.

[Gregory]

I find interest in the twists and parallels in history.

Of the two evils I would choose Carl Gustav Jung's theory of synchronicity and synchronistic events rather than parallels between Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

 

If you can trace back the faults, you may prevent a similar incident in the future.

Yes, that's right.

 

Best regards

 

Greg

[Jeeper704]

Some people should learn to watch documentaries instead of movies ....

 

There are some pretty good documentaries regarding Pearl Harbor.

I watched them a couple of times myself and can tell you that the conspiracy theory is way beyond my acceptance.

In "worst case", the US government knew something was coming their way, but not "where" it would hit.

There were several indications (Japanese submarine activity, incidents involving Japanese ships, etc) that Japan was going to hit the USA soon.

 

My hat is off to the men of the ship (I believe the Destroyer Ward?) that sunk that Japanese submarine lurking in front of Pearl Harbor.

For over 60 years, nobody would believe their stories ... till recently, a sunken Japanese sub was discovered, damaged at the same place these men told for so many years.

Finally they got the credit they deserved and shame on those who thought they were telling fairy tales.

 

One of the many sites dealing with this: Midget sub

 

And my hat's off to all the men who died in that cowardly assault by the Japanese Forces.

Turn it any way you want, that attack is an act of cowardice and nothing, no theory, can change that!

 

Erwin

[Jeeper704]

As for a bomb hitting London by mistake ...... where did you get that one?

Hilarious!

Hitler ORDERED the bombing of English cities, he wanted to hit Great Britain so hard their only chance to survive was to surrender (which they luckily for us did not!).

He saw the RAF was hitting the Luftwaffe very hard and that bombing airfields only wouldn't turn the tables.

 

But we're way off-topic here.

 

Erwin

[48MMS]

Hawkdriver, my apologies if I applied to you or anyone that this was a conspiracy. I simply feel that Roosevelt saw the threat of the Japanese (and Germans) and knew a storm was coming. If he did indeed make a decision to sacrifice 3000 for a greater good, then only he really knows. I feel confident that he never "set it up" at the expense of those aforementioned 3000. As for 9-11, I think that is not a conspiracy either, just warning signs that weren't heeded with disasterous results. But remember, if the proposed plan had worked on December 7th and the US Navy and Japanese Navy met at open sea in battle, would everyone rally behind it? Of course we will never know, but seeing how many don't rally around the current wars, I would say "no".

 

To all that read this and have their opinions, remember as I will, that opinions are your own. I will never look down on anyone's opinion as long as it isn't personal. The purpose of any debate is to come to a conclusion. In this instance the ones who know the absolute answers are dead. I can't thus say I am 100% right, but the quest for knowledge reminds us that the ugliest thing you can look at is often the truth.

[48MMS]

Erwin, read the Battle of Britain, it's far from hillarious.

[Jeeper704]

Of course we will never know, but seeing how many don't rally around the current wars, I would say "no".

 

Agreed, but the mentality of the people 65+ years is not the same as the mentality now.

How else can you explain thousands of US soldiers enlisting to go fight a war 3000 and more miles from their homes in countries some never even haerd of?

 

Erwin

[Jeeper704]

Erwin, read the Battle of Britain, it's far from hillarious.

 

It is not because I only collect US Armor and TD that I don't know other parts of the WWII history.

I read about The Battle of Britain and even spoke to men fighting in it (RAF).

 

Bombing London or any other British city was NOT a mistake.

 

Erwin

[hawkdriver]

Hawkdriver, my apologies if....

 

Don't apologize, that is what this board and this thread are for.

If you take re-read your original statement, take PH and Roosevelt out and replace with 9/11 and Bush, it would sound almost identical to what we have heard after 9/11 and even now.

[48MMS]

Good points. I will say that it is what I read and I realize in all fairness that is is accounts made by the author and thus is subject to discussion. I too know several RAF pilots, even ones that fought in WWII and the Battle. During my nine years stationed in England, I did talk to many on the war, but their accounts are just that. As for documentaries, I do watch them, and did acknowledge the inaccuracies of Hollywood in the previous post. I would not base any serious discussion on a movie, but even documentaries hit short of the mark at times.

[Jeeper704]

This is what a member here sent me:

 

But the RAF was saved by a simple mistake. On August 25, the pilot of a Luftwaffe Heinkel He.111 became lost and accidentally bombed central London, despite standing orders not to do so. Churchill ordered a retaliatory strike on Berlin, sending 81 RAF Hampden bombers to Berlin the next night. Although the attack was ineffectual, it struck right at Hitler’s ego. He immediately gave a radio address, promising, "If the British bomb our cities, we will bury theirs" and, against the advice of his generals, issued orders to institute a merciless bombing campaign against London. On September 7, the London Blitz began. Initially, the bombing was during the day, but as Luftwaffe losses added up, it became a nighttime bombing operation.

 

LINK

 

This makes me wonder if this really was a mistake.

The nazis weren't in for fair play (cfr. Poland Invasion; Germans dressed in Polish uniforms).

A trained bomber pilot not recognizing the British capital?

After seeing all the aerial recon photos???

Hitler eventually was going to bomb British cities, it was just a matter of time.

 

Erwin

[48MMS]

Ops on the bombers! Hampdens, not Blenheims!!! It sucks to get old! Thanks for the info, Al.

[Gregory]

Bombing London or any other British city was NOT a mistake.

That's right. Our American friends have always had a little other experience than we the Europeans. What our American friends know from better or worse books we do know from our homes. My grandmothers, grandfathers and my parents were not bombed and strafed on the Polish roads in September 1939 randomly but within the framework of planned air terror and planned extermination from the air. Such cities, as Warsaw, Rotterdam or London also have never been bombed randomly but they were under planned terroristic air attacks.

 

I simply feel that Roosevelt saw the threat of the Japanese (and Germans) and knew a storm was coming. If he did indeed make a decision to sacrifice 3000 for a greater good, then only he really knows. I feel confident that he never "set it up" at the expense of those aforementioned 3000. As for 9-11, I think that is not a conspiracy either, just warning signs that weren't heeded with disasterous results.

OK, I am ready to agree with you that both in the case of PH and 9-11 warning signals were treated unprofessionally from national security point of view.

 

Best regards

 

Gregory

[bronxboymike]

Today being Dec 7, lets just remember to never forget, and god bless those men who on that day in 1941 made the ultimate sacrifice. And god bless to those currently serving and carrying on in their footsteps. Thank you from a gratefull American.

Mike

[48MMS]

Yes, to all the men and women of the Military and Coast Guard, past, present and future, I salute you! Especially today.

[Sabrejet]

I've been reading this thread with interest. Apart from being a collector of US WW2 aretefacts, I've also read and continue to read every book I can on the subject of WW2. Being British, my attention was naturally grabbed by the references to the "Battle of Britain". Movies-makers, to some extent, re-write history. Unfortunately, millions of movie-goers wouldn't think to ever read a book on the subject so inevitably they take the content of the movie as gospel truth!

 

On this historic "day of days" and speaking of movies, may I mention "Pearl Harbor"? That travesty of a movie has undoubtedly coloured the perception of "how it was" for a whole generation of young Americans...and young people further afield too. Consequently, I believe that those of us who've been on this earth a while longer and who know differently have a responsibilty to educate our youngsters accordingly. By profession I'm a teacher. In the UK, the history of WW2 is a part of our National Curriculum. At the beginning of the module, sadly, most kids have no prior knowledge of Churchill, FDR or Hitler and Stalin etc. Suffice it to say that by the time they've passed through my hands, they have!

 

 

Sabrejet / Ian

[Jeeper704]

Respect for those who faced the danger and fought for our Liberation .... wherever we are.

 

On a lighter note, today is also my mother's Birthday.

She was born 4 years later though.

 

Erwin

[48MMS]

Erwin, a very happy birthday indeed to you Mom! Ian, I agree with you on the most recent movie about Pearl Harbor. If I recall it was shot off the coast of Mexico! And was nothing more than a showcase for special effects. I have always taught my children that war is not makes a warrior great. Nor is there anything glamourous about it. That in reality all we really learn from war is how to kill better the next time. I'm sure that one day there might really be a war to end all wars, and if so I doubt anyone will be around to write about it.

[Gregory]

That in reality all we really learn from war is how to kill better the next time. I'm sure that one day there might really be a war to end all wars, and if so I doubt anyone will be around to write about it.

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

 

Albert Einstein

[Jeeper704]

Erwin, a very happy birthday indeed to you Mom!

 

Thank you.

 

Erwin