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#1 Nack

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 08:20 PM

This wing is on a tunic I'm considering taking in trade. IDK. Comments please! Thanks!

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#2 Nack

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 08:21 PM

This wing is on a tunic I'm considering taking in trade. IDK. Comments please! Thanks!


The kinda blah hallmark concerns me.

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Edited by Nack, 03 December 2009 - 08:22 PM.


#3 Nack

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 08:21 PM

catch.....

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#4 John Cooper

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 09:50 PM

Looks like a restrike... but lets let others chime in.

Cheers
John

#5 Paul C.

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 06:10 AM

Looks like a Meyer restrike, the pin is wrong for a WWII Era wing

Paul

#6 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 06:20 AM

I just did a google and found an illustrated article which stated that the pins on original WW2 Meyer wings only open to about 80 degrees because there's a square stopper at the base of the pin at the hinge end. The re-strikes, on the other hand, apparently open up all the way because they lack this feature. Co-incidentally, the article in question used a re-strike T/O wing to illustrate this.

Sabrejet

#7 Nack

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 06:37 AM

I just did a google and found an illustrated article which stated that the pins on original WW2 Meyer wings only open to about 80 degrees because there's a square stopper at the base of the pin at the hinge end. The re-strikes, on the other hand, apparently open up all the way because they lack this feature. Co-incidentally, the article in question used a re-strike T/O wing to illustrate this.

Sabrejet


Interesting.

The wing has a not-WWII feel about it, but I can't quite describe it. Unfortunately, I've been wrong both ways on my dating of wings.

#8 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 07:20 AM

Here's the google link ....www.tmcaonline.org/nl/March08/march08_files/Page356.htm


Ian

Edited by Sabrejet, 04 December 2009 - 07:23 AM.


#9 Nack

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 08:09 AM

Here's the google link ....www.tmcaonline.org/nl/March08/march08_files/Page356.htm
Ian


Thanks. Interesting read.

#10 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 08:33 AM

I actually have a Meyer re-strike T/O wing which I've had since the early 90s. I bought it knowingly as there was little or no chance of finding an original to add to my collection (same applies now as then!) It's very well made..the only thing which distinguishes it as being a "modern" wing is its clean, shiny finish...not a hint of tarnish anywhere (as indeed new wings would have looked in WW2!) Yours is tarnished, but as we all know, this can be chemically enhanced. I'll post some photos of mine here later for purposes of comparison...though I don't have a macro-lens and so won't be able to get in quite as close as you!

Sabrejet

#11 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 08:55 AM

Here it is. Had to use the flash so there might be some reflection off the surface. The hallmark is the familiar raised Meyer shield with "Sterling" stamped adjacent to it. The pin opens up 180 degrees, just as that article I quoted said it would. Either way, I hope it helps you make up your mind!

2009_1204Patches0012.JPG 2009_1204Patches0009.JPG

#12 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 08:56 AM

And finally.......



2009_1204Patches0010.JPG


Sabrejet :thumbsup:

#13 Nack

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:07 AM

Hmm. Interesting. The one I have seems to be in between. Did all the TO restrikes have the same reverse pattern? Yours has a sterling stamp whereas mine doesn't. :think:

#14 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:22 AM

No..I have a couple of others which are flat-backed as opposed to hollow...all Meyer-marked. You say yours lacks the "Sterling" mark? Could that be your get out of jail card?! You have something to ponder. Doubtless there'll be some other "wing-nuts" with opinions to offer as the day wears on!

Sabrejet :think:

#15 Paul S

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 10:01 AM

This wing is on a tunic I'm considering taking in trade. IDK. Comments please! Thanks!

I wouldn't buy this wing for a WWII piece; however, it probably is from original dies and made post WWII. Generally, I reject any wing as being period WWII or pre-WWII that has the obverse feather treatment showing regular, and fairly widely spaced nicks as this one shows. Seems to be something peculiar to post WWII reproductions.

If anyone has some convincing WWII or pre-WWII wings having a similar feather treatment they consider authentic to the period, I would like to see it and read your supporting thoughts.

Paul S

#16 CliffP

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 10:51 AM

I wouldn't buy this wing for a WWII piece; however, it probably is from original dies and made post WWII. Generally, I reject any wing as being period WWII or pre-WWII that has the obverse feather treatment showing regular, and fairly widely spaced nicks as this one shows. Seems to be something peculiar to post WWII reproductions.

If anyone has some convincing WWII or pre-WWII wings having a similar feather treatment they consider authentic to the period, I would like to see it and read your supporting thoughts.

Paul S

Hi Paul,

Here are a couple of interesting facts about Technical Observer wing badges that might help others avoid purchasing a reproduction.

A real TO badge is quite rare and the reason why is because it was a secondary rating. In checking through the Official Army Registers for the years 1941 through 1947 and the Official Army & Air Force Register for 1948 you will find that all officers who held a TO rating were originally rated as pilots; therefore, it was not uncommon for a pilot to hold multiple ratings such as Observer, Combat Observer and/or Technical Observer etc. Also consider this, TO badges were never awarded, they were a private purchase item; therefore it is reasonable to assume that most pilots who held a TO rating would much rather continue wearing their pilot wing badge rather than a TO . . . so why go to the added expense of buying a badge you would rather not wear anyway?

The wing badge in the first two pictures of this thread is a re-strike; however, its design would be okay . . . provided it was backmarked STERLING in raised letters along the vertical bar of the letter "T" as simulated below.

Cliff :thumbsup:

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Edited by CliffP, 04 December 2009 - 11:00 AM.


#17 Nack

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 11:28 AM

A-ha. Thanks a lot Cliff, and the rest of the crowd. I'll let the fellow know that these wings are sadly not kosher.

Out of curiosity, any guess as when these particular wings were restruck?

#18 John Cooper

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 11:29 AM

Thanks SJ, Paul, and Cliff for providing additional information in support of this being a restrike... I was too tired to type any more last night but wanted to make sure it was a known restrike.

I also want to add that the pin is not always the way to tell a restrike since the correct pin can and has been added to restrikes...

Cheers
John

#19 Sabrejet

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 11:54 AM

John...how do you perceive the differences between a re-strike, a fake and a copy? A re-strike from original dies with strict quality control should be the equal to an original...shouldn't it? It's really only age and historical connections that separate them (plus the price of course!) Provided they are sold as such they are valid for display purposes and/or to fill gaps in collections where the originals are extremely hard to find. A fake, by definition, is made to deceive, usually for profit. So, if a good quality re-strike is artificially aged and sold as an "original" then does it becomes a fake? To further complicate matters there are those which are cast from moulds made from originals..with added hallmarks etc. Finally, there are the copies or look-alikes openly sold as such for about $10 a piece... invariably clutch-pin backed and artificially oxidised and which fool no-one...nor are they intended to. Whichever way you look at it, wing-collecting can be a bit of a minefield! Just my thoughts on the matter in the light of this present thread!

Ian/Sabrejet :think:

#20 John Cooper

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 05:38 PM

Ian,

Well that is very subjective… that being said I think on a 50,000 foot level the following applies:


1) Fake – never existed
2) Copy – self explanatory
3) Re-strike original die collectors copy
4) Fantasy – self explanatory
5) A real wing altered to enhance its value
6) Various mixes of the above

Now then there are the efforts to deceive for profit… i.e. a re-strike with the correct type of pin attached. I do not recall the post but I think it was Cliff P that had a good post on this topic possibly in the fake and reproduction thread.

Cheers
John

#21 Paul S

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 07:28 PM

Hi Cliff,

Thanks for your input...I've had a couple of the raised sterling on the reverse of the "T" versions of the TO wing, and also a couple of the Meyer restrikes. The only other TO wing I've seen that might have been a period WWII piece is the one shown below. The picture is not good enough to determine if the sterling mark is raised or incised. If incised, then it has a similar appearance to some of the Meyer restrikes from their early dies...however, if raised what then?

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#22 Nack

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 04:13 PM

Any chance these could be late 40s or very early 50s wings? I noticed that the jacket they are on is WWII but it's got late 40s/early 50s patches (USSAF and Air Material Cmd IIRC)?

#23 Sabrejet

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 04:49 AM

Any chance these could be late 40s or very early 50s wings? I noticed that the jacket they are on is WWII but it's got late 40s/early 50s patches (USSAF and Air Material Cmd IIRC)?



Any chance of you posting some photos of said jacket? Sounds as though it could be a "transitional" one...i.e. an OD WW2 type with later AF insignia. This was commonplace between '47-'50 pending the introduction of the new AF blue uniform. The T/O wing features on p.278 of the '51 edition of the "Air Officer's Guide" so it was still a recognised wing badge. However, this doesn't necessarily imply that such a wing worn in 1950 was actually made in 1950. Nothing to differentiate between a '45 wing and a '50 wing. In fact, many career AF officers / men would probably still be wearing the wing badges they were awarded in WW2 anyway, unless they'd gone up in rank and acquired senior or command wings.

Sabrejet.

#24 Paul S

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 05:32 AM

My father was recalled to the Air Force for service during the Korean war and never updated his WWII navigator wings throughout 1951-52. So, Sabrejet, your point is well taken.

Posted below is another TO wing that sports what I believe are correct GEMSCO marks for the early 1950's and as the TO wings were almost certainly made to supply those wanting them for the duration of the rating's recognition, I wonder if some or most of the Meyer TO's we sluff off as reproductions might not have been legitimately made to support the later demand into the early Vietnam period?
:think:

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#25 Nack

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 06:48 AM

Here is the jacket - a WWII english-made ike jacket, obviously used after the war as well (this is the best pic I've got at the moment). In the pocket I found a couple ticket stubs dated 1950.

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