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FSSF John E. Cooper grouping


Matt-M
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Hello, again

One more that I had a chance to photograph this weekend. A very lucky swapmeet find a few years ago mounted in a ratty frame. Have his O/S cap and dress tunic as well. Enjoy.

M.

post-5618-1258392543.jpg

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Hi, Jon

A good question. No, there wasn't a CANADA disc in the frame, which I was wondering about myself. I was also curious as to him having a set of Canadian dog tags as well as an American style set of dog tags with a Canadian address? I've not seen many FSSF groupings personally, and I know there were many loose reg.s during their formation, but as to any help with what he wore and what he was issued, I've only this one original photo that was in the frame. He's not even wearing the FSSF jump oval, which to my understanding, was not uncommon. Anyway, hope this helps answer your question.

Thanks,

Matt

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AN amazing group!!! Too bad the British didn't name their WWII campaign medals (with the exception of Australia and SA, of course).....

 

-Ski

 

Hey,

 

So Matt...was he a US soldier !?! If so, its interesting that he has or qualified for British campaign medals...or...is he a Canadian soldier and is a wearing a U.S. Army uniform with U.S. cheverons since he was a member of the FSSF !?!

 

Regarding the medals, some British soldiers did have their WWII campaign medals privately engraved in a manner similar to the WWI medals. I seem to recall that there were two main establishments that would provide engraving on the back of the campaign stars and on the rim of the Defence and War medal. I have a grouping to a tanker who drove a flail tank onto the D-Day beaches on June 6th. I also have a grouping to a Polish soldier who served with the Polish exile forces that were a part of the British army that had his engraved in the same manner.

 

Thanks for showing !!

 

Vic

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Morning, Vic

They are actually Canadian issued medals, not English. You'll notice the Maple leaf bar across his CVSM (Canadian Volunteer Service Medal) and all Commonwealth countries were issued the same UK campaign medals. Since his American dogtags list his address as Canada as well, my best guess is that he was a Canadian in a US uniform. You'll find John Cooper listed on the FSSF roster as part of the service company in the FSSF book printed right after the war (if I recall, 1948 was it's first printing). Why he wore the US disc instead of a CANADA disc on his uniform, I don't know. All this was mounted in a frame, so discovering his service history should prove interesting. I think that the Canadian government is pretty good about keeping records. I just need to find the time to write them. Hope this clears things up a bit.

Cheers!

Matt

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Cobrahistorian

Great stuff Matt!

 

From what I've heard from the Force vets I've talked to, there was a LOT of trading of US and Canadian stuff. He may have simply traded his Canada Disk for a buddy's US one. US-style dog tags along with Canadian ones are not surprising. They all trained together and shipped overseas together. The Canadians were already in the Canadian military when they were shipped down to the US for training, so logically they would have their commonwealth tags with them. FSSF Canadians were issued US uniforms and insignia, so they would have been issued US dogtags as well.

 

What intrigued me was the 474th Infantry Regiment patch in the grouping. My assumption is that he may have gotten it from an American friend at an FSSF reunion. That really is the only logical explanation for that patch being with this grouping. The 474th was comprised of FSSF soldiers who were 1) American and 2) not airborne qualified. If you go by what else is in the grouping, he was Canadian and WAS jump qualified.

 

Again, this is all speculation, but with the material presented, they are logical explanations as to why we're seeing these interesting tidbits in an incredible grouping.

 

Jon

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Morning, Vic

They are actually Canadian issued medals, not English. You'll notice the Maple leaf bar across his CVSM (Canadian Volunteer Service Medal) and all Commonwealth countries were issued the same UK campaign medals. Since his American dogtags list his address as Canada as well, my best guess is that he was a Canadian in a US uniform. You'll find John Cooper listed on the FSSF roster as part of the service company in the FSSF book printed right after the war (if I recall, 1948 was it's first printing). Why he wore the US disc instead of a CANADA disc on his uniform, I don't know. All this was mounted in a frame, so discovering his service history should prove interesting. I think that the Canadian government is pretty good about keeping records. I just need to find the time to write them. Hope this clears things up a bit.

Cheers!

Matt

 

"John H. Cooper" has a home of record listed as Weiner, Arkansas. - If the middle initial is in fact "E." as Vic mentioned above, then there is a "J.E. Cooper" (regiment assigned not listed), with a home of record of "Forest Hill, Toronto, Ontario".

 

That would make the decorations and insignia fall more in line with what's presently in the grouping.

 

More often than not, in snapshots taken around Helena where the "rope" is shown, it seems that the oval is usually present too. But there are exceptions, and who knows for sure when or where the snapshot was taken ??

 

Regardless, it's still a nice grouping and a pleasure to see !!

 

Best regards,

Paul Walker

Klamath Falls, Oregon

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"John H. Cooper" has a home of record listed as Weiner, Arkansas. - If the middle initial is in fact "E." as Vic mentioned above, then there is a "J.E. Cooper" (regiment assigned not listed), with a home of record of "Forest Hill, Toronto, Ontario".

 

That would make the decorations and insignia fall more in line with what's presently in the grouping.

 

More often than not, in snapshots taken around Helena where the "rope" is shown, it seems that the oval is usually present too. But there are exceptions, and who knows for sure when or where the snapshot was taken ??

 

Regardless, it's still a nice grouping and a pleasure to see !!

 

Best regards,

Paul Walker

Klamath Falls, Oregon

 

 

A quick google search shows John E. Cooper at Central Technical High School in Toronto, from 1939-1943 http://www.classmates.com/directory/public...egId=8706491698

 

Paul

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Cobrahistorian

Hey Matt,

 

Would it be possible to get a closeup of the shoulder cord ends and the back of the crossed arrows disk?

 

Thanks man!

 

Jon

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Cobrahistorian

Another tidbit, it was not uncommon to see Forcemen wearing jump wings without the oval. I've seen and have owned several photos and roughly half of those had guys just wearing jump wings without the oval.

 

Jon

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I think you might have the wrong Cooper? His dog tags have a tetanus date of 42-43. There were some reunion pieces also in the frame that I did not photograph, so this may explain the other items.

post-5618-1258486478.jpg

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Thanks, Jon

I think that's the most logical explanation here. The grouping also included a glass picture frame (8.5" x 11") type plaque with a reverse silk screened red FSSF arrowhead on a blue background that I foolishly sold when I originally purchased the grouping some time ago. Maybe I'll run into it again someday. I appreciate your input on this. From what I could gather when I originally purchased the grouping, he was part of the Service Battalion.

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Hi Matt. That's a fantastic grouping you have, in fact I also have a some of Jack E. Cooper's FSSF memorabilia, such as his original photo album that contains some nice early photos of him in uniform, Force patches, his WW II American and Canadian jump wings ( spares perhaps), his official First Special Service Force Association card for the year 1951 and his CANADA disc. I purchased these items over 5 years ago. I think the seller of your grouping must have given you some misleading information as Jack E. Cooper was not in the Service Company as he was a member of the 2-1 ( 2nd company 1st regiment). As for the wearing of the Force oval it was only worn for a very short period until it was removed per regulations. And some of the other members are correct when they state that the 474th Inf. Reg. (Sep) patch was probably acquired after the war at a reunion as the Canadian Forcemen never joined that unit. If you have the time I would love to see a photo of his service jacket, take care and congratulations on a very nice grouping.

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Cobrahistorian
Hi Matt. That's a fantastic grouping you have, in fact I also have a some of Jack E. Cooper's FSSF memorabilia, such as his original photo album that contains some nice early photos of him in uniform, Force patches, his WW II American and Canadian jump wings ( spares perhaps), his official First Special Service Force Association card for the year 1951 and his CANADA disc. I purchased these items over 5 years ago. I think the seller of your grouping must have given you some misleading information as Jack E. Cooper was not in the Service Company as he was a member of the 2-1 ( 2nd company 1st regiment). As for the wearing of the Force oval it was only worn for a very short period until it was removed per regulations. And some of the other members are correct when they state that the 474th Inf. Reg. (Sep) patch was probably acquired after the war at a reunion as the Canadian Forcemen never joined that unit. If you have the time I would love to see a photo of his service jacket, take care and congratulations on a very nice grouping.

 

 

And there's the rest of the story! Fantastic!

 

Of course, now the two of you have to fight to the death to see who gets to reunite the grouping! ;)

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  • 1 month later...

I think we may have two separate groupings. The FSSF unit history lists 9 Coopers, of which only 4 have the first name with a J and only two are listed as initials. There is a Jack Cooper listed from Spokane, but since only one J.E. Cooper is listed and is listed as coming from Forest Hill, Toronto, Ontario (which is what is on his American style dog tags) I'm fairly certain that you may have Jack's items. J.E.'s tunic isn't very exciting. No jump oval, just the FSSF patch and rank chevrons. I removed the wings and the shoulder braid so as not to patina the uniform or the items. I'll be going through some of my things beginning of the year to pull some stuff out to sell at the SOS show in 2010, so when I do, I'll snap a few pics of the tunic and post 'em.

Happiest of Holidays.

Sincerely,

Matt

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Hi, Jon

A good question. No, there wasn't a CANADA disc in the frame, which I was wondering about myself. I was also curious as to him having a set of Canadian dog tags as well as an American style set of dog tags with a Canadian address? I've not seen many FSSF groupings personally, and I know there were many loose reg.s during their formation, but as to any help with what he wore and what he was issued, I've only this one original photo that was in the frame. He's not even wearing the FSSF jump oval, which to my understanding, was not uncommon. Anyway, hope this helps answer your question.

Thanks,

Matt

 

Hello Matt,

Regarding dog tags, it is my understanding that at least for those who joined The Force at Ft. Harrison, Canadians and Americans were all to have American style dog tags. I can only assume that the practice remained for those Canadians who may have joined the FSSF after departure from Montana.

 

Best regards,

Paul

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Hi Matt, I'm sure we share a part of the same grouping, both during and after the war John E. Cooper used Jack as his first name. In his album I have his original Canadian Discharge Certificate which lists his serial number as B113944. Here are a few scans taken from his photo album,

 

"A very lucky swapmeet find a few years ago mounted in a ratty frame." (is this the same frame, photo from his album )

IMG_00152.jpg

 

Framed FSSF item

IMG_0015.jpg

 

Pension document

IMG_0016.jpg

 

Reunion name tag

IMG_0014.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
I think we may have two separate groupings. The FSSF unit history lists 9 Coopers, of which only 4 have the first name with a J and only two are listed as initials. There is a Jack Cooper listed from Spokane, but since only one J.E. Cooper is listed and is listed as coming from Forest Hill, Toronto, Ontario (which is what is on his American style dog tags) I'm fairly certain that you may have Jack's items. J.E.'s tunic isn't very exciting. No jump oval, just the FSSF patch and rank chevrons. I removed the wings and the shoulder braid so as not to patina the uniform or the items. I'll be going through some of my things beginning of the year to pull some stuff out to sell at the SOS show in 2010, so when I do, I'll snap a few pics of the tunic and post 'em.

Happiest of Holidays.

Sincerely,

Matt

 

Hi Matt,

 

I'll be looking forward to seeing the photographs of the tunic, thanks for posting the images of the group. As I said in the PM I sent to you I would be extremely interested in purchasing your part of John E. Cooper's grouping, if you would give it some thought I would appreciate hearing from you, take care,..Gerry

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