Col John A Schramm USMC Scout/Sniper

[skio]

Picked this up today and at first was very pleased. When I started to research the name I came up with nothing. His name did not show up on any of the Navy Cross,Silver Star or Bronze Star websites I looked through and now I think he may have been a poser.

 

Here is what I was told by the flea market vendor who was a friend of Col John A Schramm. The Col recently passed away and the vendor was given his estate to sell off. I got a USMC Officers sword last week and this stuff today. The money is ti be sent to the family up north.

 

I would like anyones comments on what they think of this grouping. I have a number of pictures to post and can take more detailed ones if need be. Opinions good or bad are welcome! I can take it.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Steve

 

First up are the medals and a USMC Scout/Sniper Assoc medallion. Medallion is the only thing named and reads J.A. Schramm. Officers hat is named "Col JA Schramm,SOCOM,2207021".What looks like Lt has been inked out.CIA plaque reads "D'artagan Your Legendary Blade Will Live Forever"

 

 

 

[skio]

Nice wooden jewelry box named,Marine Corp emblem and Special Operations Command.

 

Inside the box were the pictured items along with alot of USMC and USN SEAL pins that I did not show because they looked to be after market type stuff.

 

Medal on the right looks to be Vietnamese and reads "Biet Cong Boi Tinh" and is engraved on the back "Beyond Ultra Black". Small gold badge is a Naval Intel Agent hat pin,a SOCOM DI,Naval War Collage pin,SEAL badge,Rifle and Pistol Expert badges each with 15th Award bar,a silver bullit club NRA give away and a neat poker chip type coin that reads "The bullit that has killed you has been dipped in pigs blood".Edge reads Run Bin Laden.Attatched is a bullit that is badly corroded on the tip and does look to be blood.

 

 

[skio]

 

[skio]

Check out the ribbons

 

[skio]

A number of coins. Sorry for the angle and quality. Lighting was bad. Most are from the Northwest Territory Mint

 

 

 

 

[Kadet]

My thoughts: those items are all very modern. He crossed out the Lt in LtCol when he was promoted to full Col. The valor awards are one thing, but in the modern Navy and Marine Corps, it would be HIGHLY unusual for a Col (06) to receive the DSM. This award is presented almost exclusively to Flag and General Officers.

[skio]

These ones are all engraved. The one with my finger in the way reads"Commanding Col J. A Schramm the 26th Battalion It's Been My Honor And Priviledge". All for now.

 

Steve

 

 

[skio]

My thoughts: those items are all very modern. He crossed out the Lt in LtCol when he was promoted to full Col. The valor awards are one thing, but in the modern Navy and Marine Corps, it would be HIGHLY unusual for a Col (06) to receive the DSM. This award is presented almost exclusively to Flag and General Officers.

 

 

Yep. I also noticed that ribbon is not on the rack and there are two of the full size DSM medals in the group....Not looking good!

 

Thanks!

[kyhistorian01]

I have a freind of mine who has a named Vietnam Navy Cross group. My freind recieved it from the veteran who was a Lt Col, USMC who also had ties to the CIA. He got the material fromt eh vet with teh understanding that his neme was not to be released until after his death. Your man may have been awarded his medals for covert or secret operations. and that may be why it is hard to find documentation on him. I would suggest since it looks like you have his serial number in the hat, that you write to the National Personnel Records Center in St Louis and see what kind of information comes back. It worth a try.

 

Robert

[skio]

I have a freind of mine who has a named Vietnam Navy Cross group. My freind recieved it from the veteran who was a Lt Col, USMC who also had ties to the CIA. He got the material fromt eh vet with teh understanding that his neme was not to be released until after his death. Your man may have been awarded his medals for covert or secret operations. and that may be why it is hard to find documentation on him. I would suggest since it looks like you have his serial number in the hat, that you write to the National Personnel Records Center in St Louis and see what kind of information comes back. It worth a try.

 

Robert

 

Hey Robert

 

That did cross my mind but I have no clue on the how things like that work in the Spec Ops field. If it is not what the grouping seems,He went through alot of trouble to put it all together. I even have his sword that I picked up last week and the belt for it today. The guy who sold it says he has paper work also so I need to see if I can lay my hands on that.

 

Steve

[Stinger Gunner USMC]

A couple things that I see raise red flags for me. I wouldn't be too worried about the DSM not being on the ribbon rack as it could have been a retirement present from the USMC (this is common for senior officials). What does bother me is that EVERY ribbon except two has a number of devices. 4 stars on the CAR that is 5 awards. OK, 1 for Nam, 1 for the Gulf War and maybe 1 each for the 2 expeditionary medal's but where is the other one?

Also, The VN PUC (framed yellow with red stripes) as far as I know was not awarded to Marine Corps members, only for Army very early in the war. Then the other red flag is what appears to be a combat V on the 4th ribbon in the 6th row. That is a Vietnamese award.

 

I know that operators receive decorations that are not on offical lists but I would think that they would probably not wear their awards for covert op's on their uniforms to keep from attracting attention or questions. I know there are several former Navy Seals on the forum, perhaps they could comment further on that type of thing.

 

On the plus side much of the material in the grouping is named which would be unusual for someone to go to the trouble of just to be a "fake" hero

[james]

An awful lot of combat "V" "for Valor" devices. What is the last ribbon on the top row-LOM? Is it even authorized for that,let alone ALL the other ribbons?

 

All those "V" devices would make me pause-either a friggin bonafide hero(possible) or a loser ,who decided he wanted to look like a hreo.

[shrapneldude]

2 Navy & Marine Corps medals to a senior officer...also very strange. Not impossible, but nearly unheard of. SEAL trident...could've been a gift but...definitely wasn't a US Marine's. 4 Silver Stars...pretty unusual there too. Also, this "medal awarded for covert ops" BS is something a LOT of fakers, posers, and wannabes LOVE to say. "I got 3 Navy Crosses, but they're all classified!" The fact is, even if it's a Medal of Honor, even if it's for covert ops, there's always an award ceremony, and his name would appear on the rolls, regardless of what anyone says. If it's a top-secret deal, they'll use very vague wording in the citation -- which is kind of fun when you see them, to read between the lines, but in this case, if his name isn't out there, with THIS kind of medals / decorations...I'd say you have the estate of a deceased poser, or a very very creative faker put these together.

 

Just my thoughts, and would love to be proven wrong because if that is the real-deal, you've got one heck of a nice grouping here. Just don't think it will happen.

 

*EDIT -- Also -- just noticed he's got an Army Valorous Unit Ciation on there. Pretty sure that's a no-no.

[Stinger Gunner USMC]

Can't rule out the possibility that he was a Marine, that attended SEAL school, then returned to the Corps later in his career. There are an awful lot of SEAL's that found their origins in other branches of the military. a former SEAL would likely be qualified to wear the scuba bubbles and the gold jump wings in the USMC as is on the leather name tape above the ribbons.

As for the LOM, the combat V divice is authorized for it.

 

The one thing that gets me is the CAR, PUC, NUC, and MUC all with 4 stars! :ermm: possible, yes. likely, no. Between the PUC, NUC, MUC and the JMUC and Army Sueperior award that makes 19 unit awards! That means every unit he was with would have had to have been given a unit award every 18 months for a 30 year consecutive period

[seanmc1114]

How about the National Order Of Vietnam with "V" device? And the two separate RVN Gallantry Cross ribbons, each with a different size palm device?

[james]

How about the National Order Of Vietnam with "V" device?

 

Exactly. AToo many "V" devices,and as the other member said,the 4 stars on all those ribbons as well....Iffy,but I could be wrong,and dude could ba a Marine Corps legend.

 

Any Marines ever hear of this "Legend"?

[skio]

Man oh man, what did I buy???

 

Seems if he was a legand, his name would have popped up in at least a Google search.

 

I do thank everyone for the thoughts on this. Maybe I should stick to USAF patches in the future :think:

 

Steve

[james]

If anyone would know about someone with 5 or so Purple Hearts, these guys would. Couldnt hurt to contact them before you get rid of something that just may........................................................may,be right. Hey,ya' never know.

 

http://www.purpleheart.org/ContactUs.aspx

[teufelhunde.ret]

Man oh man, what did I buy???

 

Seems if he was a legand, his name would have popped up in at least a Google search.

 

I do thank everyone for the thoughts on this. Maybe I should stick to USAF patches in the future :think:

 

Steve

 

Steve, don't beat yourself over this, there is not a collector here who can claim they have not made a similar error in judgment. Learn from this one... s/f Darrell

[USMCRECON]

 

 

Nice wooden jewelry box named,Marine Corp emblem and Special Operations Command.

Inside the box were the pictured items along with alot of USMC and USN SEAL pins that I did not show because they looked to be after market type stuff.

Medal on the right looks to be Vietnamese and reads "Biet Cong Boi Tinh" and is engraved on the back "Beyond Ultra Black". Small gold badge is a Naval Intel Agent hat pin,a SOCOM DI,Naval War Collage pin,SEAL badge,Rifle and Pistol Expert badges each with 15th Award bar,a silver bullit club NRA give away and a neat poker chip type coin that reads "The bullit that has killed you has been dipped in pigs blood".Edge reads Run Bin Laden.Attatched is a bullet that is badly corroded on the tip and does look to be blood.

Others have made their own astute comments amd mine are similar. Being in danger of committing a redundant comment, here are my personal feelings on this one.

To start with, there's just too much stuff and too many devices not to raise major alarm bells. Seems to me there must have been a sale on devices at the local surplus store. How long was this guy on active duty....60 years? In most instances, the well-worn mantra of "I can't tell you, it's classified" almost always does not hold water; it's a red flag for a faker/wannabe. I've personally busted out several wannabes and the "it was/is classified" line has never been truthful.

Someone with all these valor awards should be at least as as much a "household name" within the Corps as Vandegrift, Edson, Puller, Davis, etc. With all those dingleberries, including Vietnamese, DESERT SHIELD/STORM, and expeditionary campaigns, his name should be all over the Internet. Oddly, when I did a name search for John A Schramm, I came up with onlly a couple hits (other than these forum posts). A couple were women (Mrs Schramm), a couple college-related hits, and a John A Schramm who was in the 21st SOW, US Air Force.

The "bullet that killed you" stuff seems much more Hollywood that real to me.....but that's just me.

There are both Recon and SEAL badges in there.

The red rbn w/yellow stripes, looks Vietnamese. There was no V device for a Vietnamese medal. :thumbdown:

It looks like a silver oak leaf on the Defense Distinguished Service Medal....six DDSMs??

Three LOMs...with V? Possible but......

Four Silver Stars? :ermm:

A silver oak leaf on the JSCMs...six JSCMs?? And with a valor device?? I don't remember the JSCM being authorized a V, at least through DESERT STORM.

Five Navy/Marine PUCs?

Two silver oak leaves on the Joint Unit Award....eleven JMUCs???

Five Combat Action Ribbon awards??? If I remember correctly, each CAR is only awarded for different theaters, not several tours of the same theater (though I could be mistaken).

Five NUCs?

Five MUCs?

Six DMSMs? :yucky:

Six Joint Achievement Medals? With all the devices that needed to be mounted, it looks like the missed the V on this one. :w00t:

A silver star device on his Joint Expeditionary medal....six awards??

And the rest of the ash and trash....most with multiple devices. :lol2:

If he was a Colonel at USSOCOM (as the cover indicates), he would have been a senior member of the staff and well-known.

Again, this is just my personal opinion but I think it's a nice display of the ribbons and devices available through uniform sales and surplus stores. :laughing1:

[bobgee]

I think USMCRecon Bill nailed it. The thing that first caught my eye is the service number in the cover. It's not an old USMC officer's service number and it's not the current usage social security number. But it could be a 7-digit USMC enisted service number, 2207021, as assigned in about 1965/66. The SSNs replaced the service number in 1971 (dumb idea!) I don't know how you could trace it.

Semper Fi......Bobgee

[Bob Hudson]

Wonder is this is him, from http://www.vvachapter218.org/articles_mayaguez.htm

 

On May 15, the first wave of 179 Marines headed for the island aboard 8 Air Force "Jolly Green Giant" helicopters. 3 Air Force helicopters unloaded Marines from the 1st Battalion, 4th Marines onto the landing pad of the USS HOLT and then headed back to Utapao to pick up the second wave of Marines. Planes dropped tear gas on the MAYAGUEZ, and the USS HOLT pulled up along side the vessel and the Marines stormed aboard. The MAYAGUEZ was deserted.

 

Simultaneously, the Marines of the 2/9 were making their landings on two other areas of the island. The eastern landing zone was on the cove side where the Cambodian compound was located. The western landing zone was a narrow split of beach about 500 feet behind the compound on the other side of the island. The Marines hoped to surround the compound.

 

As the first troops began to unload on both beaches, the Cambodians opened fire. On the western beach, one helicopter was hit and flew off crippled to ditch in the ocean about 1 mile away. The pilot had just disembarked his passengers, and was rescued at sea.

 

Meanwhile, the eastern landing zone had become a disaster. The first two heliopters landing were met by enemy fire. Ground Commander,(now) Col.Randall W.Austin had been told to expect between 20 and 40 Khmer Rouge soldiers on the island. Instead, between 150 and 200 were encountered. Lt.John Schramm's helicopter (Defunct link was removed) tore apart and crashed into the surf after the rotor system was hit. All aboard made a dash for the tree line on the beach.

 

[Stinger Gunner USMC]

I took another look at the ribbons and realized that there are no Overseas or Sea Service Deployment ribbons :ermm: I know they didnt come out until the 80s but he would have had to have had a few of each since their introduction with a list of ribbons like that a SSD ribbon for The Gulf war at the very least

[shrapneldude]

Agreed on the SSDR thing.

 

Also...just another thought -- it's not terribly uncommon for the poster / wannabe types to go ALL OUT like this. A lot of times, that's how they get caught. It's not enough just to tell a few BS war stories to some drunks in a bar...they'll go out and buy the uniforms, the plaques, the award certificates, have them all done up in their name...I think they busted one guy so embedded in his lies that he actually went and applied for MoH license plates with phony documentation.

 

I'm sorry, skio, it looks like there are just too many questions and not enough solid answers on this group. A Marine of this caliber, were he a real person, would've had some degree of notoriety and certainly would've kept his ribbons within regs. This stuff together may have been enough to score him a few pats on the back from the and a couple free drinks once in a while, but it doesn't pass the smell test.

[skio]

Agreed on the SSDR thing.

 

Also...just another thought -- it's not terribly uncommon for the poster / wannabe types to go ALL OUT like this. A lot of times, that's how they get caught. It's not enough just to tell a few BS war stories to some drunks in a bar...they'll go out and buy the uniforms, the plaques, the award certificates, have them all done up in their name...I think they busted one guy so embedded in his lies that he actually went and applied for MoH license plates with phony documentation.

 

I'm sorry, skio, it looks like there are just too many questions and not enough solid answers on this group. A Marine of this caliber, were he a real person, would've had some degree of notoriety and certainly would've kept his ribbons within regs. This stuff together may have been enough to score him a few pats on the back from the and a couple free drinks once in a while, but it doesn't pass the smell test.

 

Well,I will chaulk this one up as a lessoned learned for sure. I believe I was blinded by the light so to speak. Of course the light quickly began to dim once I started to realize the ribbons did not make sense as did the name and medal connections (or non connections) and posted it here for some opinions. You guys have pointed out alot of things that I did not know and am truely gratefull for the help.

 

I am still going to check to see if he was in the service at all through some other venues. I know most of the folks at the local VA office and at the County library so I will see if they can provide any info if such a person exsisted in the USMC. All I did find for the name was the link that Forum Support posted and as USMCRECON stated,that was a USAF Jolly Green pilot and am 99.9% sure they are not in any way connected.

 

On a positive note, I am sure that I can get the money back that I paid by splitting it up. The named coins will present a problem and I will keep the jewelry box as a reminder to put on sunglasses the next time I see a ribbon rack like that

 

Best of Luck to everybody!

 

Steve