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Juarez Walter Lampl Observer


John Cooper
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militarymodels

I'd definitely like one of these in my collection.

By the way, anybody own a Juarez Gunner wings by any chance and can post a picture of it? I know it's rare and have never seen one.

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IIRC this has come up before and none of the folks I spoke to have even seen one surface which is odd IMHO.

 

John

 

Hence, I'm wondering if there was any record of Walter Lampl even produced these wings, and in what quantity? or it's just a myth.

Lonny

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Lonny - look in the pinned section for the long answer. As for the short answer I have a set of the pilots wings with the lampl hallmark which is proof enough for me.

 

John

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  • 2 weeks later...

post-1465-1257634232.jpg

 

Before I got back on line I promised John Cooper a Juarez wing even rarer than the Aerial Gunner die struck original. Don't forget an aircraft may have a number of aerial gunners, yet an entire mission may have only one bombardier in the lead aircraft.

 

Hope you all enjoy this wing.

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Here is a nice "juarez" observer with a very rich black patina - enjoy.

 

John

 

Juarez_observer.jpg

 

 

Joe,

 

Is the Juarez style Observer's wing which John illustrates in post #1 one of your reproductions? The lack of crisp detail in the left shoulder; The off-centered look on the back; The somewhat rounded wing tips; And the blemished mirrored surface on the back of the wing makes me leary of this piece? I noticed you have a similar "Coin Silver" stamped Jaurez style Observers wing currently available on your website.

 

Russ

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Joe,

 

Is the Juarez style Observer's wing which John illustrates in post #1 one of your reproductions? The lack of crisp detail in the left shoulder; The off-centered look on the back; The somewhat rounded wing tips; And the blemished mirrored surface on the back of the wing makes me leary of this piece? I noticed you have a similar "Coin Silver" stamped Jaurez style Observers wing currently available on your website.

 

Russ

 

:think: Hummm, overall it looks a bit suspicious . . . and in the WASP wings thread, post 26, Mr. *************** did warn all of us that he had a bag of 1000 clasps and joints that were used in the production of Juarez wings.

 

Welcome back Joe. :blush:

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Russ

 

It would be an honor to fool John Cooper. But I can't even tell from this photo. Would need a close up of the wing edge and clasp.

 

One thing to remember the first owner may have polished the hell out of the wing. If they used Brasso instead of a good quality silver polish the shoulder and wing front could be worn down. I get more suspect sometimes on wings that look like they were never used.

 

John - when taking a photo of the edge, do it of the bottom of the wing, not the top.

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Hi all thanks for taking the time to review this observer wing in detail. I have to say if this is one of Joe's wings I think he would have to be consider a master craftsmen at casting wings and finishing to hide this.

 

I will post what i hopr are some better shots but I just can not seem to get the sharpest photo... a bit late for natural light or maybe it is just a lack of skill with the camera.

 

Here is the first.

 

post-227-1257648589.jpg

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Joe, I appreciate your candor and can certainly relate to your inability to tell real from fake on a two dimensional scale. Dozens of wing collectors face the same perils every day when attempting to add to their collections from the internet. It is not my intention to try and back you against the ropes so soon after your return, but the hobby and our efforts to preserve the authentic would be a much better place if you were to simply add a recognizable personal hallmark to the back of your reproduced wings. I greatly appreciate your efforts to share your wealth of militaria knowledge with us.

 

John, I'm including a couple of images of two Juarez style Observer's wings, which I think are authentic, for comparison. One is marked "STERLING", the other "COIN SILVER". Both measure a shade over 82mm in width.

 

Russ

WINGS_2009_234.jpg

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I notice that the catch and hinge on John's wing is set in closer to each other than the ones on Russ' and my examples. Also, maybe it is just the lighting, but the patina on the back of the wing looks a bit suspect. Finally, I see what Russ means about the "softness" in the details.

 

I would think that simply comparing it to another Juarez wing to see if the wings are the same size may be the first and easiest method to test if one is a casting, perhaps?

 

P

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Joe, I appreciate your candor and can certainly relate to your inability to tell real from fake on a two dimensional scale. Dozens of wing collectors face the same perils every day when attempting to add to their collections from the internet. It is not my intention to try and back you against the ropes so soon after your return, but the hobby and our efforts to preserve the authentic would be a much better place if you were to simply add a recognizable personal hallmark to the back of your reproduced wings. I greatly appreciate your efforts to share your wealth of militaria knowledge with us.

 

John, I'm including a couple of images of two Juarez style Observer's wings, which I think are authentic, for comparison. One is marked "STERLING", the other "COIN SILVER". Both measure a shade over 82mm in width.

 

Russ

 

 

Thanks for the photos Russ. I checked mine and it is the size you state. In fact the few examples I have of this type all match up wing tip to wing tip i.e. the exact same size. As for patrick observation you are correct it is a bit closer which do to the pin length being shorter then any of my other examples. I am not too worried about that since they are done by hand a will not always be in the same position. Look at the slight differences in Russ's examples i.e. two different types of pins one brass and one not. Other than that I can find any other differences so far. I would think I would be able to find some evidence of casting...

 

Cheers

John

 

Here is somthing else to add to the mix. I am using a 30x21mm loupe to look at the details and I am looking to find some evidence of the casting. I would think in the center I would find something but yet I cannot. What may I be missing?

 

JOhn

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Darn - I didn't fool John. Will add photo's later today to help all of you better understand how to ID.

 

A few other points -

About the where the catch and clasp are. Hate to tell you this but many of them were done by hand during WWII. You will find a slight variation from one wing to another. Some of you may have noticed on some Meyer two raised small lines about where the clasp and joint are placed. That was the guide on where to solder. Also sometimes the pin end sticks out, it shouldn't unless the person soldering was off a little. Silver soldering was done by hand not machine. I think I am the only one left doing silver soldering, so it is easier to ID which Meyer are real or remakes. The current Meyer are electrostatic soldering.

Pins on Juarez, Walter used a nickel plated brass pin, so some of them today have the plating removed from use etc. So you can have both a nickel color or brass color pin.

 

In some of your other posts -

Pins that only open 80 degrees, etc. fairy tale. Those were not set to any time frame, still can be purchased from the findings manufacturers today.

Joints with a pin stop, fairy tale. Same as above.

Marking wings. Not until you pass a law making everyone do it and then it still will not work. On one of your posts you had one of my WWI wings with a fake engraving of a name etc. Do you think for one minute that that person would not have removed my mark. It would have made even more legit. I even e-mailed eBay on those wings and they did nothing. Look at all the wings with engraving coming from Scottsdale, AZ. do you think for one minute he would not remove any makings. He cuts down Navy wings to make a Balloon and then machine engraves them. He only has a couple of fonts so it is easy to spot. He has even started to make Vietnam SF wings with scratch engravings and is getting big bucks for them.

 

Joe

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Thanks to everyone who posted information on this wing and discussed some of the details.

 

Here is a question for those of you who have a Lampl marked Juarez patten wing. Take a look at the should area and match it up with those marked STERLING or COIN SILVER. Additionally take a look at the marks themselves... I noticed the differences when I first picked up a Lampl mark pilots wing.

 

I thought this would be an interesting discussion on the Juarez pattern and its minor variations. So post them if ya got em.

 

Cheers

John

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  • 2 weeks later...
militarymodels

It's no doubt that the Juarez Observer's wing that John posted in post #1 is an original. It's scary that now some collectors confused the original with the fake rather from the fake with the original :blink: . I've handle a couple of fake Juarez wings and the quality were not as good, plus most of them have wrong catch, and the heavy weight of the Juarez wings as well. Also, you can't be mistaken a die struck from cast as I trust John's ability to be able to tell when handle these. Also, it looked like Juarez wings were sanded at the edges to make it a little rounder, especially clear on the Pilot wings.

I'll post a few Juarez wings from my collection later, please share yours as well.

Lonny

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It's no doubt that the Juarez Observer's wing that John posted in post #1 is an original. It's scary that now some collectors confused the original with the fake rather from the fake with the original :blink: . I've handle a couple of fake Juarez wings and the quality were not as good, plus most of them have wrong catch, and the heavy weight of the Juarez wings as well. Also, you can't be mistaken a die struck from cast as I trust John's ability to be able to tell when handle these. Also, it looked like Juarez wings were sanded at the edges to make it a little rounder, especially clear on the Pilot wings.

I'll post a few Juarez wings from my collection later, please share yours as well.

Lonny

 

 

Lonny,

 

Looking forward to see some of your wings. If you have any marked with the Lampl logo please post them as well as I am interested to see other examples. The Pilots wing I have is different form all the others in the shoulder area details and a few other areas. With all the mystery that has surrounded the "Juarez" pattern i.e. made in Mexico and the Lampl connection I find it intetesting example exits that are different dies.

 

John

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militarymodels

John,

Also, I want to clarify what I meant in post #5 is that I was wondering if there was any record of Walter Lamp even produced the Aerial Gunner wings at all. I'm aware that they produced the so called "Juarez" wings but I have never seen a Gunner wings with the Juarez pattern as some collector claimed that there was such.

Unfortunately I don't have any wings with Walter Lamp logo mark but I'll post some Juarez pattern wings when I get home.

Regards,

Lonny

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militarymodels
post-1465-1257634232.jpg

 

Before I got back on line I promised John Cooper a Juarez wing even rarer than the Aerial Gunner die struck original. Don't forget an aircraft may have a number of aerial gunners, yet an entire mission may have only one bombardier in the lead aircraft.

 

Hope you all enjoy this wing.

 

I think you're missing the whole point. The point is that the Juarez Areial Gunner wings were rarely seen and probably were produced much less than any other Juarez pattern wings if they were ever produced by Walter Lamp at all. What I was talking about is the wings themselves as a collector not the operations of the men. Yet probably most of us know the ranking of a Bombarider Officer versus an Aerial Gunner operator.

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John,

Also, I want to clarify what I meant in post #5 is that I was wondering if there was any record of Walter Lamp even produced the Aerial Gunner wings at all. I'm aware that they produced the so called "Juarez" wings but I have never seen a Gunner wings with the Juarez pattern as some collector claimed that there was such.

Unfortunately I don't have any wings with Walter Lamp logo mark but I'll post some Juarez pattern wings when I get home.

Regards,

Lonny

 

Lonny,

 

I hope folks will at least post which they have as I know taking and posting photos sometime can be a hassle for some folks not to mention some people only feel comfortable in commenting vs. posting photos of their collection.

 

Now as for the AG or other wings that is a good question and i wonder why not produce them since they had the observer as a base. I have a pilot, bombardier, aircrew and observer and just misssed an FS a few weeks back. I sure they made the all the letter wings... here is a photo posted by DR. Frost ;) in another thread showing two of the three.

 

post-1519-1214286120.jpg

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