Jump to content


M C Lilley Sword

Started by smitty95 , Sep 28 2009 03:14 PM

  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 smitty95

smitty95
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 7,627
  • 24 posts

Posted 28 September 2009 - 03:14 PM

Hi I was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about this item. It is a sword bearing the M C Lilley mark made between 1882 and 1925. On the other side it is marked made in germany and has a bear logo stamped in it. Other than that I am not sure of anything else and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it. In this ebay auction, someone told the seller his was a model 1860 staff officer sword... http://cgi.ebay.com/.....=tab=Watching .
I am not sure who told them this or if it is correct. Here are some pictures of the sword. Any help would be appreciated.

http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af293/1raredeal/sept24001.jpg
http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af293/1raredeal/sept24003.jpg
http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af293/1raredeal/sept24005.jpg
http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af293/1raredeal/sept24013.jpg
http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af293/1raredeal/sept24010.jpg
http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af293/1raredeal/sept24014.jpg
http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af293/1raredeal/sept24015.jpg
http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af293/1raredeal/sept24016.jpg

Thanks for looking.

#2 Varangian

Varangian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,047
  • 1,428 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 28 September 2009 - 03:54 PM

Looks like a M1860 Staff Officer's Sword, though the face on the end of the quillon is something I haven't seen before.

These became regulation for all officers other than Cavalry and mounted Artillery in 1872, and were replaced by the M1902 saber in, well, 1902.

Yours has a nice etching job and looks to have nearly all of the gilding intact. Nice find.

I think the inscription is "5th Regiment ONG" and not "OHG", which would mean the sword was presented to the Adjutant of the 5th Regiment, Ohio National Guard. They seem to have had a few troubles by 1897:

http://query.nytimes...9649C94669ED7CF

But they were still extant when WWI rolled around, so they apparently came out OK:

http://ech.cwru.edu/...le.pl?id=FONGR1

Edited by Varangian, 28 September 2009 - 04:17 PM.


#3 SARGE

SARGE

    MODERATOR

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 130
  • 2,198 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas City Metro

Posted 28 September 2009 - 05:50 PM

This walking bear looking logo has always been problematic for me to decypher. It either represents Abraham Kuller (walking bear) or Lauterjung & Co. (walking tiger).

#4 Varangian

Varangian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,047
  • 1,428 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 29 September 2009 - 04:16 AM

This walking bear looking logo has always been problematic for me to decypher. It either represents Abraham Kuller (walking bear) or Lauterjung & Co. (walking tiger).


I've also spent some fruitless hours trying to find a definitive answer. As much literature and documentation as there is for swords from Solingen, this seems to be a wee blind spot.

I'd be grateful for any reference you have for it....

#5 smitty95

smitty95
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 7,627
  • 24 posts

Posted 29 September 2009 - 03:52 PM

Thank you very much Sarge and Varangian!
What mark on the sword is for the "5th ONG"? Is it on the blade or handle?

Also I was wondering what the talk about Lauterjung and Kuller is about. It has me a little confused. Did M. C. Lilley purchase the parts of the sword from other companies. If so, I assume you are saying one of those companies made the blade.
One last thing, would you guys recommend cleaning the sword at all? I have always left any knives or swords I sell in "as found condition" to not destroy the patina, however I have never asked anyone if that is the right way to sell blades.

Thank you both for all your help.

#6 Varangian

Varangian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,047
  • 1,428 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 29 September 2009 - 06:10 PM

What mark on the sword is for the "5th ONG"? Is it on the blade or handle?


I thought the link you provided was to the auction for your sword...forget all the stuff about the 5th ONG.

Also I was wondering what the talk about Lauterjung and Kuller is about. It has me a little confused. Did M. C. Lilley purchase the parts of the sword from other companies. If so, I assume you are saying one of those companies made the blade.


M.C. Lilley, and most other cutlers and sellers of militaria, imported their blades and sometimes entire swords. M.C. Lilley might have imported this sword entire, or imported just the blade from a Solingen firm and made or contracted the furniture. The only sure way to tell would be a review of company records of the period, if they are even extant.

One last thing, would you guys recommend cleaning the sword at all? I have always left any knives or swords I sell in "as found condition" to not destroy the patina, however I have never asked anyone if that is the right way to sell blades.


Personally? I usually take any dirt and grime off but make sure to stop short of damaging any patina or plating. The gilding on your furniture is probably quite delicate.

#7 smitty95

smitty95
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 7,627
  • 24 posts

Posted 02 October 2009 - 03:12 PM

I thought the link you provided was to the auction for your sword...forget all the stuff about the 5th ONG.
M.C. Lilley, and most other cutlers and sellers of militaria, imported their blades and sometimes entire swords. M.C. Lilley might have imported this sword entire, or imported just the blade from a Solingen firm and made or contracted the furniture. The only sure way to tell would be a review of company records of the period, if they are even extant.
Personally? I usually take any dirt and grime off but make sure to stop short of damaging any patina or plating. The gilding on your furniture is probably quite delicate.

Thanks Varangian. Would it be ok to put M1860 Staff Officer's Sword in the auction title, even with the animal head on it? Also, do you feel $199 would be a good starting price?

I think I am going to leave the sword as is. I know it can look much better, but I'd rather leave it like this than do some harm that cannot reversed. Is this a good idea, if I have no clue how to clean it up, or will a little soap and water be enough to take off some of the grime?
Thanks again.

Edited by smitty95, 02 October 2009 - 03:13 PM.


#8 Varangian

Varangian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,047
  • 1,428 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 03 October 2009 - 02:23 AM

Would it be ok to put M1860 Staff Officer's Sword in the auction title, even with the animal head on it? Also, do you feel $199 would be a good starting price?


That's how I would identify it. I can't advise as to price; I don't collect these swords.

I think I am going to leave the sword as is. I know it can look much better, but I'd rather leave it like this than do some harm that cannot reversed. Is this a good idea, if I have no clue how to clean it up, or will a little soap and water be enough to take off some of the grime?
Thanks again.


If you're going to sell it, I'd leave it as-is.


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


In Memory of Co-Founder GREG MILLS ROBINSON, a.k.a. "Marine-KaBar"
(February 17, 1949 - March 5, 2011)