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Ruptured Case WARNING


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#26 Linedoggie

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 06:36 PM

K -54? Hmmm, dont think it's American Issue.

Kynoch or Korean Military Arsenal?

#27 oldfireguy

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 08:15 PM

K 54 is Korean. Do a quick websearch and you may find it is a bad batch. I found at least two examples of blowouts like yours.

Edited by oldfireguy, 20 September 2009 - 08:17 PM.


#28 mpguy80/08

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 08:25 PM

Again, thanks everyone... surprisingly enough, the most irritated part of my face is the underside of my nose which got the worse of the flash burns. It single impact point on my face is a little touchy, but my undernose feels like its still burning at times.

I spent 28 years in the Army, and I've seen case ruptures, and other mishaps, but as was said here, nothing that would cause the damage to that poor 03. I have the ammo owner checking to make sure they are all the same headstamp and where they were manufactured. I cant help but wonder if these were somehow reloads repackaged and sold as new ammo. Maybe an overloaded casing, causing overpressure and rupture, or like I said, a reload, which would have been resized... I dont know if you can see it in the pic of the side of the casing, but just above the extractor groove, there appears to be a line in the casing... slightly raised if you run your thumb over it... but it was along this line the casing ruptured.

We've all heard the call for eyes and ears... I had my ears in... but was in the woods in a fairly shaded area. Against my better judgement, I went without my glasses and almost lost an eye. I wont be making that mistake again.

I will let you know what I found out about the ammo as soon as I get any further information on it.

Wayne

#29 mpguy80/08

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 08:43 PM

Any one check to see if there was an obstruction in the barrel? Someone might have stuck the barrel in the dirt prior to you being handed the rifle. I have been to live fire events with reenactors and surprisingly a good number are not all that familiar with firearms and live ammunition. My unit hosts a unit only live fire at Knob Creek with every thing from pistols to belt feds.

One other point, most shooters have no problem shooting reloads of their own make but few care to shoot reloads from someone else. I am the same way, I have no problem firing my own reloads because I know what level of attention went into reloading them but how someone else does it is a mystery I do not care to experiment with.


To answer your question, the Rifle's owner had just fired the rifle himself. As I said, there were like five others who fired it before me, and all fired safely. There had been a total of about 75 rounds put through the weapon before it was handed to me. The rifle had never touched the ground or been set down. We thought maybe the barrel might have been obstructed, and as soon as the round was removed from the chamber the first thing they did was to rod the barrel. The Barrel was clear. Had there been another bullet lodged in the barrel, the barrel would have ruptured. I've seen that happen before and its fifty times worse than what happened yesterday. I saw a report from another unit on a post I was stationed at where the soldier pulled the trigger of the M16, and didnt note the pop and no kick. The subsequent round he fired pretty much exploded the rifle. The barrel and receiver ruptured, and threw shrapnel all over the place. I seriously believe if there had been an obstruction in the barrel, I would have been toted out of there minus an eye or two and probably half my face.

I am really picky about the ammo I shoot through my Garand. I always try to match the ammo with the weapon. No more than 150 gr ammo for the garand and 03, no more than 110gr ammo for the Carbine, no more than 85gr for the M1911, and no more than 62gr ammo for the AR 15 I have, and that only because it has an A2 heavy barrel. These were what the weapons were designed for. Why mess with that?

Anyway, its late here... I'm gonna call it a night and post tomorrow if I find out anything about that ammo.

Wayne

#30 gunbarrel

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 10:42 PM

K 54 is Korean. Do a quick websearch and you may find it is a bad batch. I found at least two examples of blowouts like yours.


I did the same thing, but came up with different results. "KA" is the headstamp for the Pusan Government Arsenal, Pusan, Republic of Korea; however, just "K" could be:
  • K Karlsborg Arsenal, Karlsborg, Sweden
  • K Kirkee Arsenal, Poona-3, Kirkee, India
  • K Kynoch Factories, Imperial Chemical Industries Ltd., Birmingham, England
  • K Probably Kaunas Arsenal, Kaunas, Lithuania
Reference:

http://www.cartridge...dstampcodes.htm

Another thing. If "54" is the date, I bet it is corrosive ammo.

#31 kphfun

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 12:38 AM

Wayne, thank the lord it was not worse and I am so glad to here you are okay. That being said I would never shoot any foreign made .30 other then Greek as I have heard just to many bad thing's and have had to much junk trying to shoot. The bottom line is you are A-okay!

#32 Dirteater101

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 05:33 AM

Unfortunately it dose happen.... But you are ok, hate to loose another paratrooper!

Had a good friend that was almost killed by an mas 36 that was badly re chambered in .308. Caseing ruptured just like yours did. He also was saved by his thick glasses. He was also shooting "factory" ammo.

Where did you get your rifle? Was it a rebarrel? What dose the head space look like? Or like in the mas, how deep are the feed groves cut? You may have deeper problem than a trashed bolt!

And korean ammo dose have softer cases than most nato 30.06 ammo. My Dear ole M-1 has bent many of a caseneck with that stuff. The quality control is.....


well

mmmm.... Ok.......

Edited by Dirteater101, 21 September 2009 - 05:37 AM.


#33 101CH47

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 06:25 AM

Wayne, thank the lord it was not worse and I am so glad to here you are okay. That being said I would never shoot any foreign made .30 other then Greek as I have heard just to many bad thing's and have had to much junk trying to shoot. The bottom line is you are A-okay!



Any FN marked 30 cal you stumble on just send my way if you don't like ammunition made outside of the US. :)

#34 mpguy80/08

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 02:39 PM

Unfortunately it dose happen.... But you are ok, hate to loose another paratrooper!

Had a good friend that was almost killed by an mas 36 that was badly re chambered in .308. Caseing ruptured just like yours did. He also was saved by his thick glasses. He was also shooting "factory" ammo.

Where did you get your rifle? Was it a rebarrel? What dose the head space look like? Or like in the mas, how deep are the feed groves cut? You may have deeper problem than a trashed bolt!

And korean ammo dose have softer cases than most nato 30.06 ammo. My Dear ole M-1 has bent many of a caseneck with that stuff. The quality control is.....
well

mmmm.... Ok.......


The rifle was picked up by one of the members of my unit who just happened to grab an estate sale. The two weapons he got were an Underwood Carbine and the 03A3. He had the headspace checked and all was fine. Like I said, we put about 75 rounds through it before the casing ruptured. As far as we could tell, the barrel was original to the weapon. The weapon was disassembled and cleaned, checked , then lubed and reassembled before we even thought about putting anything into it. I still believe it was a bad casing... I saw that one of the Korean arsenals that made ammo using the K headstamp was aquired by PMC in the 80s... If you remember my original post, I believe I stated the box the ammo came in was red and white and I thought the name of the MFG began with a P. This could very well be it.

Still nothing on the solid ID of the Ammo from the owner of the ammo we were firing. I'll post it as soon as I find out.

Wayne

#35 hotlead

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 04:07 PM

Well, some things that might cause kabooms come to mind here. I those were reloads, it could be that that cartridge was inadvertently reloaded with a very fast burning powder, like a pistol rated powder.

If that was original surplus that was indeed made in 1954, it may have had some type of corrosion or discoloration. A dealer may have tumbled these in a vibratory tumbler to clean 'em up for sale, this can cause the propellant to break apart into smaller and smaller pieces, increasing the burn rate and generating much higher chamber pressures.

Just a few thoughts, and I'm glad no one was seriously injured.

#36 mpguy80/08

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 07:03 PM

For a series of videos of the Day's shoot... you can find them here... www.myspace.com/pendragon2 Just look at the videos section and you should find them. That's me in the 82nd ABN DIV MP Impression. The O3A3 video is the weapon that was involved in this mishap. I didnt post the mishap video as after I closed the bolt and shouldered the weapon to fire, the person on the camera turned downrange... more interested in getting the rounds hitting the targets than showing the shoot like I wanted. I wish he had gotten it... it might have shown what happened... or at least enough to make a WAG as to that happened.

There are plenty of pictures in the Photos sections too... hope you all take a gander and enjoy. Feel free to post comments, but please keep em clean!

Wayne

#37 Dirteater101

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 04:27 AM

That mas took about 10 rounds before it failed too. What a lot of importers did when faced with a surplus rifle with bad headspace (had a few 1917 rifles like this) is that they would turn the barrel back a turn or two to correct the headspace, than recut the feed ramps. Sometimes they did not do that good of a job. This is probably not your case. best way to diagnose your problem is to look at the fired brass.

Look for

1. Warped brass. Compare it to an unfired caseing. look closely.

2. Did it extract smoothly? Bad chambers will cause the caseing to stick.

3. Check your primers on the brass. Are they pushed out? Deformed? Are the pockets clean? This is the best way to tell if they are reloads.

Oh good news on your brass (or bad) (mainly bad)The ammo is not Korean as I originally thought. The "K" is for Kinoch (misspelled probably) So It is British manufacture. It is also berdan primed so cannot be reloaded. The Korean ammo had a two letter code, either KA or PS (Kunsahn or Punhsahn arsenal)Never a single letter. I was board yesterday and did some research...We had gotten a batch of this Limey 30.06 on 1919 belts a few years ago. Ran it in a semi auto 1919, ran flawlessly and a little fast. Only took an Enblock out of an M-1 to know that this was not suitable for it. Kicked too much and the action was moving WAY To FAST (excessive gas pressure). This was probably (my educated guess here) European effort to improve the performance of their war surplus lend lease 1919's. And the {cough} quality control is a little off.

#38 Old Marine

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:59 AM

Phew! That was close! I am glad to hear that you are OK, you were very lucky. Take a break and build models for a while, usually they don't explode.

I am glad that you are OK!

Take Care

Dennis

#39 mpguy80/08

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:22 AM

Phew! That was close! I am glad to hear that you are OK, you were very lucky. Take a break and build models for a while, usually they don't explode.

I am glad that you are OK!

Take Care

Dennis


Thank you... I'm sitting here chuckling to myself at the irony of your statement. I needed that. When I was a kid, my old models exploded all the time... *insert evil grin here* I've actually been working on a Panther G with Zimmerit, but got tired of working on that so I began work on an M2A3 ODS Bradley. After the mishap with the 03, I may just take your advice...

Wayne

#40 mpguy80/08

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:32 AM

That mas took about 10 rounds before it failed too. What a lot of importers did when faced with a surplus rifle with bad headspace (had a few 1917 rifles like this) is that they would turn the barrel back a turn or two to correct the headspace, than recut the feed ramps. Sometimes they did not do that good of a job. This is probably not your case. best way to diagnose your problem is to look at the fired brass.

Look for

1. Warped brass. Compare it to an unfired caseing. look closely.

2. Did it extract smoothly? Bad chambers will cause the caseing to stick.

3. Check your primers on the brass. Are they pushed out? Deformed? Are the pockets clean? This is the best way to tell if they are reloads.

Oh good news on your brass (or bad) (mainly bad)The ammo is not Korean as I originally thought. The "K" is for Kinoch (misspelled probably) So It is British manufacture. It is also berdan primed so cannot be reloaded. The Korean ammo had a two letter code, either KA or PS (Kunsahn or Punhsahn arsenal)Never a single letter. I was board yesterday and did some research...We had gotten a batch of this Limey 30.06 on 1919 belts a few years ago. Ran it in a semi auto 1919, ran flawlessly and a little fast. Only took an Enblock out of an M-1 to know that this was not suitable for it. Kicked too much and the action was moving WAY To FAST (excessive gas pressure). This was probably (my educated guess here) European effort to improve the performance of their war surplus lend lease 1919's. And the {cough} quality control is a little off.


The brass looks good except for the part that blew out (see pictures). The rounds were feeding and extracting flawlessly. The primer on the blown out cartridge I have in my possession is seated well, flush with the cartridge base, with a good positove strike point from the firing pin. Thinking back, there was a little banter about how much harder the 03 was kicking in comparison with the Garand. I figured it was the fact that a garand has a recoil spring that eats up quite a bit of the recoil, the 03 doesn't. All the recoil on the 03 would be felt straight back through the rifle, no recoil spring, hence more kick. Judging from the videos, I dont think it was overly bad. I appreciate those with more knowledge of reloading ammunition putting their two cents in here too. There are a lot more variables that go into a mishap like this than you realize. I'm still leaning more towards a bad casing, but certainly the powder load and how the ammo had been treated are definitely variables to look at as well. For example, the tumbling of rounds to make them look newer breaking down the powder grains inside into smaller and faster burning pieces... I'd never thought of that.

I'm still trying to get info on the manufacturer of that ammo... The more I think of it, PMC sounds right... but I want to be sure.

Wayne

#41 Sgt. Boghots

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 11:38 AM

Could be a double-charge of powder; of course they occur much less frequently in factory loaded ammo, but still happen from time to time.

Glad you weren't hurt any worse, that's for sure !!

Best regards,
Paul Walker
Klamath Falls, Oregon

#42 Alonzo

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 07:15 PM

I hope you mean I am glad you WEREN'T badly injured.


OH CRAP...fingers not connected to brain.
Sorry guys.

#43 mpguy80/08

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 07:24 PM

OH CRAP...fingers not connected to brain.
Sorry guys.


Is okay man, I knew what you meant!

Wayne

#44 Mr-X

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 07:26 AM

Unfortunately it dose happen.... But you are ok, hate to loose another paratrooper!

Had a good friend that was almost killed by an mas 36 that was badly re chambered in .308. Caseing ruptured just like yours did. He also was saved by his thick glasses. He was also shooting "factory" ammo.

Where did you get your rifle? Was it a rebarrel? What dose the head space look like? Or like in the mas, how deep are the feed groves cut? You may have deeper problem than a trashed bolt!

And korean ammo dose have softer cases than most nato 30.06 ammo. My Dear ole M-1 has bent many of a caseneck with that stuff. The quality control is.....
well

mmmm.... Ok.......


Firstly I am happy to hear that you are ok.

Secondly I think that Dirteater is on the ball with the one :thumbsup:

Edited by Mr-X, 27 September 2009 - 07:26 AM.


#45 Dirteater101

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 04:35 AM

Thank you

It happens occasionally, do not tell my customers that though......

#46 Mr-X

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 06:59 AM

Oh good news on your brass (or bad) (mainly bad)The ammo is not Korean as I originally thought. The "K" is for Kinoch (misspelled probably) So It is British manufacture. It is also berdan primed so cannot be reloaded. The Korean ammo had a two letter code, either KA or PS (Kunsahn or Punhsahn arsenal)Never a single letter. I was board yesterday and did some research...We had gotten a batch of this Limey 30.06 on 1919 belts a few years ago. Ran it in a semi auto 1919, ran flawlessly and a little fast. Only took an Enblock out of an M-1 to know that this was not suitable for it. Kicked too much and the action was moving WAY To FAST (excessive gas pressure). This was probably (my educated guess here) European effort to improve the performance of their war surplus lend lease 1919's. And the {cough} quality control is a little off.



No probs Dirteater, BTW I just realized I used the wrong quote of yours.

This was the one I was referring to. :thumbsup:

#47 mpguy80/08

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 03:34 PM

Firstly I am happy to hear that you are ok.

Secondly I think that Dirteater is on the ball with the one :thumbsup:


Thanks Mr. X... I appreciate it. I think our unit has another life fire set up for mid december... kind of a Battle of the Bulge thing. I'm taking more of my own ammunition, and staying away from bolt action rifles... lol I'll get photos to slide into the Show us your Impressions folder. Hopefully it will snow a bit to give it more of a Winter 44 feel...

Wayne

#48 Dirteater101

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 04:21 AM

Gee, And I thought that we Able Co. guys were the only reenactors unbalanced enough to have an organized shoot in the dead of winter.

Things learned from last time.

Do not fear the bolt gun, less parts to fail. Fear the ammo!

Thompson drums hate cold....

The grease that you put in your rifle in November will become some sort of adhesive if it is cold enough.

Even L.S.A. freezes.......

You can never have enough pairs of socks!!

#49 bob lamoreaux

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 10:36 AM

Sorry to hear about the accident! I guess shooting is like being a pilot: There are old shooters and bold shooters, but no old bold shooters! Having lost over 50% of my hearing from using cotton -- when I thought about it -- shooting .45 acp and '06 (forgot about the .303 Brit), I now wear more ample hearing protection (will someone please answer that phone that keeps ringing!) and have always worn shooting glasses.

Anyway! That "line" around the cartridge case that blew, suggesting a weak spot. . . If my ever fading memory is correct, I think that "line" might be reflective of impending case separation due to faulty headspacing OR -- and here is where I'm relying on poor memory -- excessive case resizing while reloading. Can't recall what happens during the reloading/resizing process other than stressing the brass and possibly pushing the neck of the cartridge too "deep" creating, de facto, excess headspace and potential case separation. At least I THINK this is what happens. Don't think this type of fault (over resizing) would be reflective of factory ammo, even if it was made in Timbuctu (whereever that is). And I don't think cartridge annealling extends that far down the case. . .

'Course, it could have been remanufactured ammo. . .

Keep well and keep safe!

#50 mpguy80/08

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 08:54 PM

Sorry to hear about the accident! I guess shooting is like being a pilot: There are old shooters and bold shooters, but no old bold shooters! Having lost over 50% of my hearing from using cotton -- when I thought about it -- shooting .45 acp and '06 (forgot about the .303 Brit), I now wear more ample hearing protection (will someone please answer that phone that keeps ringing!) and have always worn shooting glasses.

Anyway! That "line" around the cartridge case that blew, suggesting a weak spot. . . If my ever fading memory is correct, I think that "line" might be reflective of impending case separation due to faulty headspacing OR -- and here is where I'm relying on poor memory -- excessive case resizing while reloading. Can't recall what happens during the reloading/resizing process other than stressing the brass and possibly pushing the neck of the cartridge too "deep" creating, de facto, excess headspace and potential case separation. At least I THINK this is what happens. Don't think this type of fault (over resizing) would be reflective of factory ammo, even if it was made in Timbuctu (whereever that is). And I don't think cartridge annealling extends that far down the case. . .

'Course, it could have been remanufactured ammo. . .

Keep well and keep safe!


When I saw that line around the base of the casing, I thought thats not normal.... I've been around Military weapons since 1980, and other guns a darn sight longer than that and thats the first time I've ever seen that... Of course, I didnt pick up on it till after I'd damn near blowed my face off... I still dont know what hit me in the cheek... whether it was gasses (which would have had to have been pretty concentrated to shoot back and punch a neat little hole in my cheek) or maybe a piece of powder or brass... It is pretty much healed now... I can still see the hole, but it isnt touchy anymore, and it doesnt feel like anything went IN the skin.

I'd heard that a case can only be resized and reloaded only a few times as the casing gets thinned by the resizing process. I dont think I've ever seen a casing separate like that. The only one I've seen that did, was a 40mm grenade in a MK-19 Grenade Launcher, and that was another lucky one. The whole rear rim of the casing blew out, and since the entire casing is not completely in the chamber when the bolt is in battery, the resulting blow out vented directly under the gun, the shock wave catching the gunner in the family jewels. We saw the puff of smoke, the round actually never left the barrel, and the gunner kinda rolled over sideways groaning and holding the lads... Over all, he was lucky it didnt have enough ooomph to cycle the next round or the gun would have exploded with the round from the case that ruptured still in the barrel. The ammo lot was less than a year old.

I'm just glad that it wasnt worse than it was... and I know I'll be firing my own ammo from now on.

Wayne


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