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Dress Blues EGA with "C clip" ???


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#1 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:44 AM

Back again to finish the series of EGA posts for enlisted emblems in my collection of the period. This emblem has confounded me since having acquired it and quite simply I have not seen another in the 1920 style like it. No hallmarks and no evidence of a screwpost or any tampering with the emblems.

True to the 1920 patterns, the eagle has the commonly found squat legs, however the continents differ in design, more like the Meyer's configuration of the period. The C clip appears to be period true. Overall it has a cast rather than stamped or pressed construction. It has a true "half hollow globe" and notice how worn the right collar emblem is, shined or sanded away. Perhaps this Marine had two sets and they were unintentionally mixed in latter years?

A certain oddity, my thoughts are it may very well be a foreign (theater) made pair, a fake? I am stumped, would like others to share their own thoughts and observations.

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  • 1920_blues_C_clip_003.jpg


#2 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:46 AM

rear...

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#3 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:48 AM

"C" clip

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#4 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:49 AM

true "half hollow globe"

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#5 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:38 PM

Darrell,

My thoughts are this pair is a very nice original US made set. They just look "right as rain" to me as something that was made in the 1920's. As for cast vs. stamped? I can't see anything that would suggest casting. I haven't held them in hand and looked closely like you, but they look like a nice set of die stamped emblems from where I'm sitting. The pin assemblies are unusual for this early EM pattern, but I would guess this particular maker offered them with pin fasteners, as they did with officer's collar emblems of the period. Possibly private purchase from the maker?

You could very well be right and somewhere out there, there is another identical set that has the left collar globe emory clothed smooth.

I personally feel they're a great, original set and I would be more than willing to add them to my collection if you should ever decide to part with them.

s/f, Gary

#6 Jeremiah

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 02:10 PM

Okay Gents, I've got one of these birds in my EGA collection but I've never felt too comfortable with it. Too bright of a finish for being 80 years old and the steel hardware the back is a bit bright IMO as well. It's almost a perfect twin your yours of the same side Darrell, down to the smooth land mass. Here's a couple shots........so what do you think?

Jeremiah
UNK_20s.JPG

UNK_20s_2.JPG

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 22 September 2007 - 10:55 AM.
re-do photos


#7 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 04:54 PM

Kind of a long winded reply, but heck, here goes!

Well, Jeremiah, there's the monkey wrench in the works! Are the emblems die stamped or cast in your opinion? I haven't encountered any well made die stamped fakes as of yet, but I guess we'll have to keep watch and see if any more of these emblems surface in the near future. All three emblems involved here look die stamped? I keep coming back to the same questions for these. If you're going to fake a set of EM emblems, why do a fairly common enlisted 1920 set and get the stamping perfectly correct from known originals, the pin assemblies, right down to the flattened and shaped pin retaining end correct and while you're at it, use an emblem for the faking that doesn't have distinct continents visable. Chances are the fakers know this pattern of emblem isn't going to be a big money maker like other patterns, especially with the uncommon pin assemblies, so why do it? Any of us who have been collecting these birds for awhile know that this pattern is very often confused with the M1937 types by newer collectors (c'mon buddy, you know we all did! :D ), so I would think this pattern wouldn't be a good candidate to fake for monetary gains, but who knows? As for the shiny finishes? I imagine we all have in our collections those StayBrite or "Never Dull" M1937 EM dress emblems from the WWII period that have never been polished and never will be and they're still as shiny as the day they were made and that was 60+ years ago, so what we need to find out is if manufacturers had the technique to make emblems with these finishes from 1920 on? It comes to mind that many of the original Army gilted collar discs, some with stainless pin fasteners from the same period retain all of their shine, so that doesn't really bother me. I was a firm believer that any early emblems from the 1920's or 1930's with chrome plating were either fake or plated recently, until Dirk proved me wrong with the 1930's China Marine newsletter with the advertisement from the local Peking merchant offering chrome plating services for emblems and accoutrements. The indistinct continents? I have emblems that have differing degrees of continental details and also eagles and anchors that are lacking detail and allot of it isn't from polishing. You can find service birds with the same lack of detail. My guess...could it be worn or uncleaned dies?

Anyway, unless allot more of these identical emblems surface in the future, I see no reason to doubt their originality. They do look like honest emblems to me, but I've been fooled and proven wrong many times before. If they are fake, we've all got some serious worrying to do.

s/f, Gary

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 22 September 2007 - 10:54 AM.
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#8 Jeremiah

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 07:20 PM

Okay, I can agree with what you've said but check this out. This seller puts a couple of these up on eBay every few months, makes a quick buck and then a couple months go by and he sells a few more..........all the same side. Never the other side. Note the landmass wear. Could he be using one photo for all of his auctions? Sure, but this gives pause.

Jeremiah

http://cgi.ebay.com/...I...p;rd=1&rd=1

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 10:14 PM

Jeremiah,

Now I'm close to being 100% certain these are good emblems. Daniel Griffin is one of the trustworthy "good guys" on eBay. I can't praise him enough for his honesty and making sure we the buyers are getting legit stuff. He is the same seller that was selling the massive quantities of 10 each @ $9.99 a whack on SpanAm era USMC EM dress buttons backmarked to B.Y. PIPPY. I won 4 or 5 lots of those before they were noticed by other bidders. He sold 10 button lots of those every other month or so for a couple of years. I think he may have also been the same seller responsible for the massive quantities of mint, unissued cards of very early USMC EM Horstmann front closure and cuff dress buttons that were being sold a few years back. I don't know how he does it, but the guy comes up with amazing quantities of very early US militaria. I know he's an active member on WAF and contributes excellent knowledge on many WWI and earlier patches (his main interest), but don't now if he's a member here yet. I think I will contact him and ask his source on the EGA's and also make sure he's aware of our forum here.

Thanks for pointing out his auctions. Is this where you got yours?

EDIT NOTE: I forgot to mention, but yes, he does use the same photo(s) when selling multiple items of the exact same thing or at least he did with his buttons.

s/f, Gary

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 22 September 2007 - 10:56 AM.
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#10 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 08:27 AM

Thanks for your thoughts. Have read the comment's a few times this morning, before adding additional thoughts. Frankly, I have been skeptical about this pair since first acquiring them, principally because of the "apparent wear" to the right emblem globe, which appears below. What I know about casting methods can be put on the head of a pin, however, I am familiar with most die stamping methods and believe this is a stamped piece, done very crudely and likely done with an old an new die(s). Yet the absence of any reasonable use and wear to the right emblem is perplexing. In summary, I am dubious that it truly is a "70 year old period original". And that my friends is what is in question, no doubt in my mind "its original", as Gary says. But there is a big difference in the two statements.

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  • 1920_blues_C_clip_016.jpg

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 14 May 2007 - 08:33 AM.


#11 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 08:53 AM

Here is the Globe of the left collar emblem. The expected age, wear and patina is clearly what one would expect of a "70 year old period original". Well, from my observations and humble experienceanyway... When set side by side the difference is perceptible and readily distinguishable.

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  • 1920_blues_C_clip_019.jpg


#12 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 09:04 AM

Here is the reverse side of the left collar. Note the area provisioned to accept a screw post, was included in the die. The patina exhibited is clearly what should be expected.

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  • 1920_blues_C_clip_009.jpg


#13 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 09:13 AM

Here is the right collar emblem, notice the absence of the pad for provisional mounting of a screw post. More troubling however, the patina, on the reverse side of the anchor arms is virtually non-existent in the left emblem.

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  • 1920_blues_C_clip_010.jpg


#14 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 09:39 AM

My final thought is the matter of casting or stamping. Take a peek at this, if as Gary indicates, these being die stamped... these emblems must be the most crudely done in existence.

Having said this I hope others will look at their emblems of this period. It will be an asset to the EGA reference section to know how many others are floating about and if there are any out there identical (manufacture) in bronze for the service blouse?

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  • 1920_blues_C_clip_012.jpg
  • 1920_blues_C_clip_013.jpg


#15 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 06:44 PM

Darrell,

Sorry, but I don't share your concern over the stamping exibited on your set. I've seen better stamping for sure, but then, I've also seen worse. If you and Jeremiah are really concerned over these emblems being possible fakes, I'd be more than happy to take them off your hands, for I still don't see anything that alarms me, especially in regards to the modern fakes I've seen in EM emblems.

I grabbed a drawer of my singles and examined them very quickly. Out of maybe 15 or 20 emblems, here are two that would fit the category of crude. Both of these are screw back emblems and show definite signs of minor filing to the reverse of eagle, especially where the anti-roll pin is attached. I imagine if these hadn't been pre-filed for soldering, they would look pretty much identical to the stamping on your pin back emblems.
Gary

Attached Images

  • m1920_crude_left_rev_02.jpg
  • m1920_crude_right_rev.jpg

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 22 September 2007 - 10:57 AM.
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#16 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 07:01 PM

Guys,

I also looked through my sets and singles for signs of weak stamping in the continents. I did find this Service set that has an almost completely missing South America, a missing Florida and a very weak Northern Canada. The eagle on the right emblem also shows weakness in the chest area. I know I've seen this on unpolished M1937's before, but hadn't noticed it on this set. I don't know what would cause the continents to disappear during stamping, but my guess is it had something to do with the dies filling with excessive metal? On the lack of continents on the pin back right collar emblems you both have, who knows? Maybe the Quality Control guy that was supposed to be watching and checking that day was off sick or eating lunch? Maybe all the right collar birds Daniel Griffin is selling were the rejects and were never put into sets, but like I said, nothing on the pin backs really concerns or bothers me.
Gary

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  • m1920_servset_02.jpg
  • m1920_servset_03.jpg


#17 daniel griffin

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 07:15 PM

I purchased around 100 of these - one side only ! , from an estate in NJ a few years ago . Interesting enough the veteran was a 1920's USN CMOH winner - he saved someone's life in a ship fire . I do have a tendency to use the same photos , no larceny intended - just lazyness .
Regards , Dan

#18 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 11:24 PM

Hi Dan, welcome aboard. Thanks for the provenance. Do recall if you got these were in pair's or single's. I cannot remember if I aquired mine from you or another seller (for the moment). Hope to see you around her often (Thanks Gary ;) )
Regards;

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 22 September 2007 - 10:57 AM.
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#19 daniel griffin

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 04:20 AM

Thanks for the welcome . Singles only - no pairs . They were in the original paste board box , who knows where the box of the other sides went .

#20 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 12:42 PM

Hi Dan,

DITTO to Darrell's welcome! Thank you for coming aboard and responding to my request regarding this thread. Can you tell us if your single collar emblems are all identical with weak continents or do they have differing degrees of detail?

I'm surprised Darrell didn't pick up on the great tidbit of you mentioning you have the original box. Does it have any information, as to manufacturer, dates of manufacture, information in regards to the emblems being pin back? The box sounds almost as interesting as the emblems. Once again, thank you!

Gary

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 22 September 2007 - 10:58 AM.
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#21 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:42 AM

As a matter of fact, it would be neat to see a picture of the box... etc... :)

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 22 September 2007 - 11:00 AM.
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#22 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 11:03 AM

Fellow forum members:

You are in the EGA "reference section". This area is were posts from the EGA "discussion section" are moved for permanent retention and education about the history of the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. As time moves forward there maybe additional information the EGA Moderators wish to add or will add to this specific post. We ask for your input as well.

We encourage further comments about this post and its content. In order to do so, you will need to start a new post in the "EGA discussion area" which is listed in the main page under insignia. And as needed we will be pleased to move any new and or valued information that is derived from your post (and subsequent comments) into this reference area as its own standing post.

Please be advised; posting and or editing is restricted on this post to moderator's and forum staff




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