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#1 Sgt Brown

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 05:59 PM

Hey Gang!

Purchased this ammo belt from you-know-where. My expertise (?) is in flight and survival gear, not infantry. Anyhow, something just doesn't seem right even though the seller has a 100% feedback rating.

It is very light khaki as in pre-war or early war but no inner snap tabs. The color is almost yellowish. No manufacturer's marking on the backside. Hardware does appear to be blackened brass. The whitish tint you see in the photos below is good old All American dust. The belt was listed as coming from a museum that has changed its focus, so the dust would be acceptable.

Ideas? Comments? Suggestions?

Tom http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Attached Images

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  • Belt04.JPG


#2 QED4

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 06:41 PM

I would say it is a very poor reproduction and unless it was very cheap I would try to get my money back. I really don't like anything about it, both the colour and weave of the webbing is off, the grommets are placed wrong and are the wrong type, the pocket fasteners don't look right but it is hard to tell from the pictures. I could go on but I think you get the idea.

#3 dustin

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 06:43 PM

hey tom i too am not an expert in cartridge belts but I can tell right away it "Bogus" and I am sure others will soon support this.
1- I cans ee the fabric is not correct
2- the eyelets are really cheap
3- the U.S. is not quite right either
looks like QED beat me to it!

Edited by dustin, 07 May 2007 - 06:44 PM.


#4 craig_pickrall

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 07:53 PM

I agree with all of the above.

If you want something to compare with look here:

http://www.usmilitar...?showtopic=2541

#5 Bob Hudson

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 08:09 PM

The belt was listed as coming from a museum that has changed its focus, so the dust would be acceptable.


Tom http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif


The museum may well have thought it was original: 99.9% of the public could not even fathom the idea that someone would make fakes of "old Army surplus."

#6 QED4

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 06:14 AM

Just because something comes from a museum or is in a museum dose not mean it is real or they don't know it isn't real. The first thing you see when you walk into the Airborne Museum in Fayetteville is a paratrooper hanging from the ceiling wearing the most horrendous reproduction uniform and equipment you would ever want to see. It is hanging in the open right inside the door where it is exposed to dust and dirt and the fact that it is hanging it will not last forever. There are also mannequins scattered through out with repro uniforms but they are all in the open where people could touch them, although I don't think they are supposed to. The real stuff is all in cases and well protected but not user friendly. So repros are used and do have a place in museums so don't think just because it came from a museum it has to be real. Oh yes, if you ever are any where in eastern North Carolina go the the Airborne Museum you won't be sorry.

#7 Bob M

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 09:47 AM

Maybe an British Made model???

Bob

#8 craig_pickrall

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:16 AM

It doesn't look like WW2 Brit made.

This is typical Brit made:

Cartridge_Belt___Khaki_9.jpg
Cartridge_Belt___Khaki_10.jpg

#9 Frank76

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 09:15 AM

I have a British Made Cartridge belt in my collection (1943 date) and I can assure you that it looks very different to the one shown here.

Perhaps the cheap way it was produced is because it is a movie-prop? Just an idea

#10 ww2_1943

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 09:26 AM

Looks a lot like the repros from the movie Saving Private Ryan. I had a few of them that I gave away or took apart for the buckle.

#11 US CANTEEN GURU

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 10:03 AM

Museums often acquire odd items in donations, sometimes presented in commemoration of a person. The donators are well meaning but often donate equipment that is not suitable for display, or doesn't fit the theme of the museum.

It is true that museums will use replica items to complete a display but the idea is to present an impression as the reenactors say. My guess is that for some items of uniform and equipment display in other than controlled conditions is unacceptable to the museum's mission of preservation. I have had opportunity to tour the storage area of three museums and the stored material was astounding. Wardrobes and drawers full of uniforms and equipment that simply could not be displayed for lack of space or unsuitable to the presentation of the museum. In one museum there were several experimental and pattern revolver holsters from the 1870-90s that still had the Ordnance Department identification tags on them.

Museums are under no mandate to maintain donated materials and are free to exchange items unsuitable to preservation or retention for items more appropriate to the museum's mission. I have benefited from a Canadian military museum that disposed of some unusual U.S. items that had been sent to the Canadian Army for examination. I have mentioned that I intend to donate some selected materials to certain U.S. military museums and have been warned by a person that has asked to acquire certain items in my holdings, that museums frequently dispose (trade, sell) unwanted items.

As has been mentioned previously because something comes from a museum doesn't mean it is a good (original, collectible) item. In fact one should be more careful of something that came from a museum.

I vaguely recall that the cartridge belt in question here was identified as an Asian replica. The large eyelets with the obvious crimp on the reverse being one of the identifying features. And I recall comment regarding the number of eyelets in the connecting piece. My opinion is that the most obvious feature is the relatively poor quality of the product. In my research sorting out some of the very good replicas is easily accomplished by comparison with known genuine items. I suppose it may be said it is necessary to examine allot of examples to build the expertise to identify replicas from genuine. Sometimes knowledge of manufacturers and their products is useful to identifying an item that is genuine but markings are forged to make the item more valuable. This seems especially prevalent in items identified to the U.S. Marine Corps.

The field of forgeries is quite another matter where there is purposeful intent to deceive for profit. The first thing that should be considered is what is to be gained from forging something? No one would seriously consider forging a M1923 cartridge belt as they are far too common to be economically feasible to forge. Until a few years ago no one would have thought that forging certain features and markings on helmets would be profitable. But many of you have created the market by your demand and the forgers have met your requirements.

I have and will continue to express my admonition to you to get out of collecting material things and going through all the mental anguish that comes with collecting and dealing with dealers and forgers (which are often both). I recommend the acquisition of books and other printed mater as a much more satisfactory way to be involved in research of anti-bellum military uniforms and equipment. You will also avoid the apparently traumatic experience many of you express in using the online auction(s).

Edited by US CANTEEN GURU, 10 May 2007 - 10:13 AM.


#12 Sgt Brown

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 04:44 PM

The seller has responded and we have begun the process of return. I'll let you guys know how it progresses as his specialty is militaria. As I said in my original post, he has a 100% feedback rating so far. Hope all comes out OK for all involved.

Tom

#13 Bazooka Joe

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 11:09 PM

Looking at the belt, I'm intrigued as to where it actually came from. It doesn't look like any of the reroduction US gear that I've seen before, but the fabric looks a bit like some of the rero British webbing items that I've seen.

#14 Sgt Brown

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 06:27 PM

Looking at the belt, I'm intrigued as to where it actually came from. It doesn't look like any of the reroduction US gear that I've seen before, but the fabric looks a bit like some of the rero British webbing items that I've seen.


Joe,

The belt was sent back and, as we are talking three years ago now, I wouldn't even be able to tell you the eBay ID of the seller.

Tom

#15 David F

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 02:27 AM

It looks like one of the repros from the long time defunct business of Harlan Glenn.


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