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WW2 Service Dress collar emblem discussion


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#1 SARGE

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 07:19 AM

Gentlemen,

I know little to nothing about USMC gear. Can anyone tell me the time period of these EGA? They are pin back and they are unmarked.

Thanks for looking.

USMC_EGA_pinback.JPG

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 08 March 2008 - 11:43 AM.


#2 bobgee

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 08:14 AM

How about a pic of the reverse? Pin back emblems tend to be early pieces.
Bob

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 28 July 2007 - 10:32 AM.


#3 Brig

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 08:21 AM

the versions I've seen were screwback...however, I have seen WWII officer pieces in pinback. this, however, looks enlisted

I'm also noticing that the anchor isn't pierced, which also leads me to believe it's later WWII, though it doesn't look to be potsmetal

Edited by Brig, 06 May 2007 - 08:21 AM.


#4 SARGE

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 10:47 AM

Here is a photo of the back. The device is either bronzed (darkened) brass or bronze. For what it is worth, they came on a 1944 dated enlisted blouse.

USMC_EGA_back.JPG

#5 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 05:36 PM

Sarge: What great timing! Darrell (Teufelhunde.ret) and I have been discussing this very pattern in PM's and email and have both been wondering if they might be early M1937 or as Brig suggests late war M1937's.

Did your 1944 dated blouse have a matched set of these clutch fastener emblems or just this one? How confident are you that they were original to the blouse? I have the exact same looking left service collar emblem with screw post and cut out anchor ring which would suggest earlier than 1942, but yours with clutch fasteners and Darrell's example with screw post have the solid anchor ring which suggests post 1942? I also have this pattern or very similar pattern in a single right dress collar emblem with clutch fasteners and cut out anchor ring. Can you tell me if your emblem(s) have the full half globe like all pre 1937 EM emblems or slightly flatter globe like the standard 1937 or WWII emblem. We're trying to figure out if one of the EGA makers offered enlisted emblems with both clutch fasteners during the pre war years (full half globe) and also during the war (flatter M1937 globe). While my dress emblem with clutch fasteners like yours has a full half globe, the screw post service emblem has the flatter M1937 globe I'll post some photos of both emblems to show you what I'm talking about with the globes. It is rather interesting that your emblem would be found on a 1944 blouse, which suggests clutch fasteners may have been used earlier than 1951.
Gary

Here is my service emblem with cut out anchor ring and screw post. You'll notice the flatter globe.

Attached Images

  • m37_serv_02_fr.jpg
  • m37_serv_02_rev.jpg
  • m37_serv_02_sideview.jpg


#6 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 05:39 PM

Here is the similar dress emblem with clutch fasteners and cut out anchor ring. If you notice, the globe on this emblem is a full half globe like pre 1937 EM emblems. Does your emblem have the full or flatter globe?
Gary

Here is another similar service emblem with screw post and cut out ring. It definitely looks like the same family of emblems in the M1937 pattern as these, but like the dress emblem, this emblem also has the full half globe.

Attached Images

  • m1937_dress_fr.jpg
  • m1937_dress_rev.jpg
  • m1937_dress_sideview.jpg
  • m1937_serv_fr.jpg
  • m1937_serv_rev.jpg
  • m1937_serv_sideview.jpg


#7 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 12:27 AM

Gary. I believe we're onto something w/ these early 36/37 items. The one posted looks like the tall legs type. Got look at some latter today...

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 28 July 2007 - 10:35 AM.


#8 SARGE

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 08:04 AM

Gary,

These are a matching pair of insignia that came on a custom tailor modified enlisted service coat dated 1944. I have no idea if these insignia have been on the coat since 1944 since they were in the hands of another collector. I will ask him tonight if he bought the coat with these EGA on it or if he got it from a vet, etc.

Here is a closeup of the matching right side EGA. It is also unmarked.

USMC_EGA_right.JPG

The globe seems to be the full half globe shape to my eyes but please judge for yourself.

USMC_EGA_side.JPG

Here is another view of the bottom of the globe.

USMC_EGA_globe.JPG

I will see the fellow I bought this coat from tonight and I will ask more questions about this particular insignia and the original source.

#9 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 08:14 AM

Sarge,

Gary & I have bee looking at this series closely in the pat weeks. Gary has nicknamed it the tall leg variety. I am presuming at this point in our notes it is an very early period (1936) WW2 example. Do the wings have this detail present? Regards,

Attached Images

  • ww2_emblems_005.jpg


#10 SARGE

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 08:19 AM

Darrell,

The wings do have very detailed feathering. The fletching runs out toward the wing tips instead of inward toward the body as on the example that you show. It is obviously the same style but struck from a different die.

#11 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 10:03 AM

Sarge, the previous post is of the only one I have of this fine etching in the wings of the eagle. I don't think especially rare, give the number of Marines during the period. But obviously this unknown maker put some effort into the design. Thanks for sharing with us.

#12 SARGE

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 10:44 AM

Darrell,

You are certainly welcome and thank you for your thoughts.

Since the one that you show and mine were surely struck from two separate dies I looked more closely at my examples. I find a visible flaw on the left (Pacific) side of the globe. There appears to be a wandering hairline crack mark that extends N & S in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. The mark exists on both left and right devices and there is a slight glob of metal just to the east of the crack mark. It appears to be a die flaw so you might check similar EGA for a similar flaw. Of course it could simply be some uncleaned spurge in the die instead of a crack and in that case it would have been a transient flaw that disappeared when the die was cleaned. Interesting none the less.

#13 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 10:49 AM

Have seen this before, not often. As with the mints these "die varieties" do escape into the public hands and before quite collectible. I suspect Gary will know how frequently this is seen?

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 28 July 2007 - 10:36 AM.


#14 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 04:06 PM

Sarge: This pattern of EGA has me scratching my head. The full half globes on yours would certainly suggest very early M1937's, even though the anchor rings are the filled or uncut type, but the clutch fasteners suggest late M1937's. I think one thing we've overlooked is the clutch clips. Can you tell me what type they are or possibly show scans of their faces? If your emblems are original to the 1944 dated blouse, maybe the clutch clips are original as well and will give us a clue as to age or period of use. Because the clutch pins appear completely original to your set and my single dress emblem, I'd like to think that there was a maker who offered clutch fasteners early on in this series of emblems. Another question is, was the Marine who was issued the blouse recalled to service during the Korean War? Even if this was the case, why the full half globes? Regardless of period of use, you've got a nice set of variant emblems there.

As for flaws in emblems, it's quite common to find a single emblem in a set with slight cracks, globs, poor stamping, etc.., but to find the same flaw in the same spot of the globe on a matched set of emblems is really uncommon. No idea as to what caused this on yours, but that is interesting.

Because Darrell hasn't suggested it yet, if you should feel it neccessary to replace your clutch back set with a very nice, beautiful bronze set of screw back WWII M1937 EM emblems for your 1944 dated blouse, let me know. Can I interest you in some very nice Army insignia? :) I'll be more than happy to trade with you! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/whistling.gif

Gary

#15 SARGE

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 08:13 PM

Gary,

Thank you for your expertise. I am afraid the clutch backs are mixed and are the later style(s) with bumps. I have no idea if they are original or not but I suspect they are not since they have mixed numbers of bumps. No help there I am afraid.

The name in the jacket is "L.R. RUCKER" but I have no information on his service time. I guess I will keep these EGA on the jacket since these are the ones that came on it when I received it.

I appreciate the effort to nail down this insignia but 1937 style is as close as we can get I suppose. Good enough for me.

#16 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 09:22 AM

Sure hope Gary sees this because I cannot date it; open ring stock, clutch back and H&H hallmark. Searched lots of EGA posts http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/crying.gif and did not see any with H&H mark? Certainly these are not that scarce?

Attached Images

  • ww2_H_H_piscover_front.jpg
  • ww2_H_H_piscover_005.jpg
  • ww2_H_H_piscover_mark.jpg


#17 Brig

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 10:37 AM

I haven't seen that many enlisted pieces maker marked....I think it's an uncommon varient

#18 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 10:48 AM

Sure hope Gary sees this because I cannot date it; open ring stock, clutch back and H&H hallmark. Searched lots of EGA posts http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/crying.gif and did not see any with H&H mark? Certainly these are not that scarce?


Hi Darrell,

When I see and hear EM and hallmark used in the same phrase, I perk right up! :)

Early morning caffeine jitters, so sorry for the crummy photos....again!

I do have a couple of sets of these H&H hallmarked emblems. In addition to these, H&H also made an identical set without hallmarks. Both of the hallmarked sets came with identical nickeled clutch fasteners with Patent numbers and bumps, so everything about them leads me to believe Korean War era. The unhallmarked set have identical clutch fasteners, but in nude brass. This is only speculation on my part, but I'm guessing these were private purchase and nothing that was issued. They are high quality emblems and identical to the war time sterlings H&H produced. BTW - When I found my unhallmarked set at a local surplus store, they were thrown in with a small tub of other insignia and there were a few heart pounding moments until I found the mate! At first glance, the superb "chocolate brown" finish convinced me I had found a WWII plastic, until I noticed clutch fasteners and no tabs between anchor flukes and globes. So far, I haven't found their equal when it comes to finishes!

s/f, Gary

Attached Images

  • HH_EM_clutchbacks.jpg
  • HH_EM_clutchbacks_cl.jpg
  • HH_EM_clutchbacks_hlmk.jpg
  • HH_EM_clutchbacks_fasteners.jpg


#19 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 10:53 AM

Darrell,

Here is the unhallmarked set. Identical in every way to the hallmarked sets, with the exception of the superb "chocolate brown" finish.

s/f, Gary

Attached Images

  • HH_EM_clutchbacks_brown_fr.jpg
  • HH_EM_clutchbacks_brown_rev.jpg


#20 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 01:34 PM

Gary, I discovered upon putting this one away... a set of the unmarked types just as you have shown here. They are very well stamped and identical as you point out. I'm wondering... perhaps drawing a conclusion here? Since there were still a number of private uniform makers thru this period, did the outside sales guy offer these to them and using the same die w/o the hallmark reverse supply them to the company who had the government contract to supply EM emblems? Makes sense... why else make both unmarked and hallmarked types? Not very likely the one who had the contract would have cared much. Or perhaps it was H&H who had the contract and just choose to offer hallmarked emblems to private uniform makers to give the uniform buyer of sense of more prestige... intriguing thought?

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 13 November 2007 - 01:36 PM.


#21 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 10:39 PM

Gary, I discovered upon putting this one away... a set of the unmarked types just as you have shown here. They are very well stamped and identical as you point out. I'm wondering... perhaps drawing a conclusion here? Since there were still a number of private uniform makers thru this period, did the outside sales guy offer these to them and using the same die w/o the hallmark reverse supply them to the company who had the government contract to supply EM emblems? Makes sense... why else make both unmarked and hallmarked types? Not very likely the one who had the contract would have cared much. Or perhaps it was H&H who had the contract and just choose to offer hallmarked emblems to private uniform makers to give the uniform buyer of sense of more prestige... intriguing thought?


Darrell,

I guess anything is possible when it comes to H&H and their hallmarked and non-hallmarked emblems. I know you and I and others share the same fascination with the why and when of H&H hallmark practices, so probably just one more question to be asked if we ever get the opportunity to ask the right person. We've seen definite H&H emblems with Blackinton and other hallmarks, so maybe a reverse case of H&H producing non-hallmarked emblems for different firms as you suggest. I do know that these emblems are of high quality and I will stick with my conviction that they were private purchase only. If they had been issue pieces, we'd see allot more of them around and they are on the scarcer side of EM emblems for the period.

s/f, Gary

#22 Brig

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 08:02 AM

Just to breathe some life back into this discussion, I just got these tall legged birds in. They're rather thin compared to a lot of emblems with zinc rollers, which I would have attributed to mid-war private purchase (hence the pierced anchor) just prior to econo-measures to preserve metal, but I concur that with the depression still winding down, it could have been a pre-war measure, as well...

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  • Tall_Leg_Front.JPG


#23 Brig

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 08:03 AM

rears

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  • Tall_Leg_Rear.JPG


#24 Brig

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 12:21 PM

I guess my question is, have we decided if the screwbacks are early patterns, despite the zinc rollers? Or maybe they were used throughout the war private purchase?

#25 Brig

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 05:52 AM

here's a dress version I picked up in Raleigh. any solid dating yet?

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  • Tall_Leg_Dress_Front.JPG
  • Tall_Leg_Dress_Rear.JPG



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