WW2 Merchant Marines dishonorable discharge papers?

[StevenL]

Well, they don't actually say dishonorable anywhere but this certainly wasn't an honorable discharge. From what I've been able to research Mr. Woodward later enlisted with the U.S. Coast Guard and the U.S. Air Force. What I don't know for sure is if he furthered his military career because that was the only option left open to him after a dishonorable discharge or because the dishonorable discharge was later revoked. There's writing on the front of the letter, presumably from his parents, that makes me wonder just what happened to make this man be AWOL for 5+ days...

[willysmb44]

Geez, he didn't even make it through training. Shocking that any family would keep something like this, it's got to be pretty rare, I'd think!

[Bob Hudson]

Geez, he didn't even make it through training. Shocking that any family would keep something like this, it's got to be pretty rare, I'd think!

 

The top certificate appears to have a wrong date: it says Dec. 1944, but others are dated Jan. 1944. It looks like he may have disappeared at the end of 1942: if so he was 16 years old then (he was born 6 Feb. 1927).

 

As for his later service: within days after his 18th birthday he signed on a crewman on a ship:

 

New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957

about Lester E Woodward

Name: Lester E Woodward

Arrival Date: 13 Feb 1945

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1927

Age: 18

Ethnicity/Race-

/Nationality: American

Ship Name: Beaconhill

 

In 1946 he was crew on another merchant ship:

 

 

California Passenger and Crew Lists, 1893-1957

about Lester E Woodward

Name: Lester E Woodward

Arrival Date: 5 Sep 1946

Age: 18

Birth Date: Abt 1928

Gender: Male

Ethnicity: English

Ship Name: Robert C Grier

Port of Arrival: San Francisco, California

Port of Departure: Manila; Phillipine Islands

 

The veterans graves records list him only as Coast Guard:

 

U.S. Veterans Gravesites, ca.1775-2006

about Lester E Woodward

Name: Lester E Woodward

Service Info.: US COAST GUARD WORLD WAR II

Birth Date: 6 Feb 1927

Death Date: 8 Apr 2003

Cemetery: Fayetteville Cemetery

[Bob Hudson]

It should be noted that Maritime Services trainees could disenroll themselves - in other words they could quit whenever they wanted and I read about one place that had a 15% disenrollment rate.

 

It also appears that the USMS did not permit enrollment of 16 & 17 year olds until May 1944, so it looks like Mr. Woodward apparently lied about his age to enroll in 1943.

 

By the way the USMS was a training program and it was not the same as being in the Merchant Marine:

 

 

Their experiment with enrolling 16 and 17 year olds did not last long in part because of the problems with such young men. This led to studies such as this:

 

 

The evidence appears to show that Lester Woodward tried to join when he was legally too young, but as soon as he was 18 he signed on as a merchant seaman. His disenrollment from the USMS was not at all a Dishonorable Discharge - not even the equivalent, and it would not have hampered his later military career and in fact would not have shown up in any sort of check if he enlisted in the military. USMS schools only kept such records for a year. This topic's title's "Merchant Marines dishonorable discharge" is in fact wrong, but it does provide a chance to look into the little-known USMS.

[gunbarrel]

He was just a kid... FS, thanks for clearing him up, sort of speak, on the Forum.

[cmjordan77]

So technically this was not a Dishonorable Discharge.

 

He was disenrolled.

 

Then, when he hit age, he reinrolled.

 

Is that my understanding?

[kklinejr]

This is going to seem really odd, but I think I met Mr. Woodward back in the 1990s. If this is the same gentleman, he was a resident of the Fayetteville-Manlius area (eastside Syracuse, NY) in the early 1990s when our school had a day dedicated to honoring veterans (we still do it every year). I distinctly remember speaking with him because he was the only Merchant Marine man I met that day. He said he signed up early for the sea services, but got caught, so he "skedaddled" back home. His parents were ticked off beyond belief (signed up without permisson, if I remember correctly). He then re-upped with parental blessing at a later time. Man I wish I could remember more, but I don't recall him saying he was in the Coast Guard at all...perhaps he joined at a later date.

 

SMALL World!

 

Ken

[Bluehawk]

Plus which, I don't believe being AWOL is sufficient cause for receiving the Dishonorable in any case or branch of service.

 

I think you need to have broken a serious felony-type law to earn that.

 

Even habitual AWOLs usually get Bad Conduct discharges, if not merely Administrative/Unsuitable, unless, again, they have broken some other serious law.

 

Desertion is a whole different deal, obviously.

 

It's too bad the title of this thread cannot be adjusted a little to preserve this Mariner's reputation.

[StevenL]

This is going to seem really odd, but I think I met Mr. Woodward back in the 1990s. If this is the same gentleman, he was a resident of the Fayetteville-Manlius area (eastside Syracuse, NY) in the early 1990s when our school had a day dedicated to honoring veterans (we still do it every year). I distinctly remember speaking with him because he was the only Merchant Marine man I met that day. He said he signed up early for the sea services, but got caught, so he "skedaddled" back home. His parents were ticked off beyond belief (signed up without permisson, if I remember correctly). He then re-upped with parental blessing at a later time. Man I wish I could remember more, but I don't recall him saying he was in the Coast Guard at all...perhaps he joined at a later date.

 

SMALL World!

 

Ken

 

That sure sounds to me like it's the same man to me. I'm AMAZED to have gotten so much information about him from this thread. I knew that things just didn't add up with these papers. Call me sappy but I'm really glad to be able to "clear his name". If anything his enlisting when he was too young is even more admirable.

 

Thanks to all for their input.

 

It's too bad the title of this thread cannot be adjusted a little to preserve this Mariner's reputation.

 

A forum admin can change the topic titles, and it would be great if one of them did that to this one. I don't think the thread is a knock at his reputation though, it's a learning experience. With most every post I make I learn more and more about the small technical terms in this hobby. :thumbsup:

[kklinejr]

What always amazes me about these types of items is just where they end up 60 years later. This one was sent to NY back in the 1940s and ends up in California 60 years later. Items definitely travel.

[StevenL]

What always amazes me about these types of items is just where they end up 60 years later. This one was sent to NY back in the 1940s and ends up in California 60 years later. Items definitely travel.

 

I actually bought these papers in an antique shop in Endicott, NY for $1 when I was visiting my family a little over a month ago. I found a lot of stuff from the Southern Tier and Central NY during that trip.

[sigsaye]

Actually, since The MS is not a military service, it is not a discharge. It is documentation of quitting a civilian job, the company asking for their company property back and notification to the draft board that the former employee is available upon his 18th birthday. The US military has never (I believe) taken in any one who has received a dishonorable discharge from any other branch of service. Basically, he quit a job, and a few years later went back.

 

But interesting set of documents none the less.

Steve Hesson

[Bob Hudson]

This is going to seem really odd, but I think I met Mr. Woodward back in the 1990s... He said he signed up early for the sea services, but got caught, so he "skedaddled" back home. His parents were ticked off beyond belief (signed up without permisson, if I remember correctly). He then re-upped with parental blessing at a later time.

 

That sounds plausible: I can easily imagine a 16-year-old leaving if he feared they had found out he lied about his age.

 

My dad tried to change his birth certificate to get into the USMS program when he was under age, but it didn't work. It was such a bad change, so obvious: I told him, "Dad, they didn't reject you because you were too young, they rejected you because they didn't want anyone who was dumb enough to think that was a convincing date change."

 

We can leave the title the same and not impugn Mr Woodward, because the initial impression of those papers really is what the title says, but I think we do a good job here of showing what really happened and that he had an honorable service, and perhaps this thread will help others who might come across similar "disenrollment" documents.

[1st Sgt CES]

What a Great story ! This has been a education to me on the USMS----Blue Skies 1st Sgt CES

[senhoragua]

That sounds plausible: I can easily imagine a 16-year-old leaving if he feared they had found out he lied about his age.

 

My dad tried to change his birth certificate to get into the USMS program when he was under age, but it didn't work. It was such a bad change, so obvious: I told him, "Dad, they didn't reject you because you were too young, they rejected you because they didn't want anyone who was dumb enough to think that was a convincing date change."

 

We can leave the title the same and not impugn Mr Woodward, because the initial impression of those papers really is what the title says, but I think we do a good job here of showing what really happened and that he had an honorable service, and perhaps this thread will help others who might come across similar "disenrollment" documents.

 

Interestingly enough, the USMS Training Station at Sheepshead Bay did have an experiment enrollment of 16-year-olds. The USMS disenrolled a lot of people so that the facilities could be used in an economic fashion; many were asked to leave if they were disruptive, didn't have the aptitude for the training, &c. Many were also removed due to "psychobiological reasons". At the end of the experiment, ,any 16-years-olds were disenrolled due not being what the USMS wanted in the program.

[ShooterMcGavin]

This looks to me like this particular seaman was dropped from their rolls and released, considering it is from a training organization (USMS) ... probably meant the draft board was also notified and he was once again 1-A. The Merchant Marine, though they fell under Navy regulations during wartime did not dishonorably discharge any seamen/officers since they were employed by labor unions/shipping companies and at most were terminated from employment aboard a particular ship if necessary (same as today.)