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#51 Gary Cain

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 09:28 PM

Hi Russ,

A couple of questions on the RAAF wing. What is the pin made of? Also would it be possible to get a real good closeup picture of the catch? I have a trip planned for OZ in two months and have managed to have a couple of friends down there track down some of the K.G.Luke employees who I will be taking out for a meal or three and a good long discussion on hallmarks and products! And yes I will be posting the results.


Cheers
Gary

#52 pfrost

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 05:10 PM

Howdy Gary,

Irrespective of what the good employees of Luke may recall, Russ and others have made a very strong argument, including well reasoned and well presented historical proof and analysis baked up by concrete examples, proving that the use of these circular hallmarks are not a recent fantasy such that "no one has ever seen a similar hallmark from K.G. Luke until about a year ago, when all of a sudden these start showing up" and "no one has seen another in 65 years, and yet in the last 6 months they have all of a sudden popped up"; statements you made when you so vehemently attacked those of us who were less then totally convinced that these wings are in fact fake. A number of your absolutes, such as WHEN these hallmarks showed up (within the last few years) as well as construction of Luke wings (never making 2-piece wings), have been carefully and thoughtfully debunked. With all due respect, you made some very strong accusations and statements of opinion (and accused those of us (me) with less than total acceptance of your dogma, as being histronic) and so I am not so inclined to let you totally off the hook now. :rolleyes: (again said with all respect and civility) B)

While I still remain unsure as to whether or not ALL the recent wings are actually vintage, the FACTS on the ground now almost totally support the hypothesis that at least SOME of the the "circular hallmarked" wings were, in fact, present well before "a few years ago". If that is so, then one of your basic assumptions, that "no else has ever seen a similar hallmark, till just recently" is in fact, absolutely incorrect.

Furthermore, the facts on the ground also indicate that a wide range of wings and insignia made by K.G. Luke utilized an equally wide range of patterns and marking styles, which also suggests that your statement that "in the hallmarks that have been presented that we know to be original, they all follow a basic pattern. Whether it was made prior to WWII or in the 1950's the elements that make up the hallmark are the same. They may have used a Melb. on one or a full Melbourne on another but the fonts are the same as is the size. Till now" is also not strictly correct. As Russ and others have carefully presented, it seems clear that KG Luke utilized multiple styles of markings on their insignia. They are not all the same and variation does exist.

This, on one hand, disproves one of your core arguments that KG Luke ONLY used a relatively small number of marking styles--those that you have seen, at least. On the other hand, your counter argument if we are to accept the circular hallmark as being vintage then the hallmarks should follow similar patterns--turns out to be in fact true, since the circular hallmarks of post WWII-RAAF wings are very similar to WWII vintage USAAF wings. Clearly not identical, but clearly from the same "basic pattern" as it were.

Perhaps one could continue to counter-argue that those wings that have been presented by Rustywings and JLeng and that can be seen in a variety of other independent mediums (such as Russ Huff's various works on wings from the 80's and 90's) are simply fakes that originate from more than "a few years ago". Or one could just a easily apply some basic scientific thought experiments or logical constructs (minus of course the institutional bias) and conclude that perhaps, just PERHAPS these wings are good vintage WWII wings. Just as perhaps, KG Luke also likely made "2-piece wings" as proven in some other posts on this thread.

The point is that you assured us that these wings were absolutely fake, and were being made within the last few years, and that no other LG Luke insignia EVER used even similar patterns or fonts. Sadly, in each case, the facts suggest otherwise. One could, if they were invested in a particular argument, continue to alter the basic assumptions. For example, one could now say that these are fakes, but have been made much later than a year or two ago, or that any wings that share similar fonts (such as post war insignia) are simply similar fakes, and are not part of an..."institutional identity", as it were. But you were so adamant! ;) I would hate for you to let facts and data get in the way of your hypothesis.

Again, as I said before, I still feel that the jury is out for me on a number of these wings. I would think long and hard about dropping big money on wings like this and I would very carefully study them based on their own merits. Just my 2 cents.

Patrick


Hi Russ,

A couple of questions on the RAAF wing. What is the pin made of? Also would it be possible to get a real good closeup picture of the catch? I have a trip planned for OZ in two months and have managed to have a couple of friends down there track down some of the K.G.Luke employees who I will be taking out for a meal or three and a good long discussion on hallmarks and products! And yes I will be posting the results.
Cheers
Gary


Edited by pfrost, 25 August 2009 - 05:15 PM.


#53 Gary Cain

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:13 PM

Hi Patrick,

The prime problem I have with the metal brevet (the 1952 dated one) that Russ shows is that the RAAF never authorised them. In fact there is no evidence of the Aussies ever having a metallic wing (please feel free to correct me on this if you have evidence I do not). The Royal Flying Corps started using a metallic wing in 1909/1910 but phased it out by 1914. The Canadian Air Force began using a metallic wing as well but had completely phased them out by 1924 when they changed their name to the Royal Canadian Air Force or RCAF for short. The Australian Flying Corps was founded in 1914 and in no photo that I have seen is there a metal wing present. Then when the RAAF was founded from the AFC once again there are no metal wings in any photo I have ever seen (and I have seen several thousand of those). Furthermore a good friend of mine who is a serving Wing Commander in the RAAF at the current time also has never heard nor seen a metal brevet ever in use in the Royal Australian Air Force. Needless to say that casts kind of a lot of doubt on the wing that Russ has presented. Which in turn makes any wing with that hallmark reeeeaallyy suspect. Don't you think?

Now, because I do believe in researching things fully, my WINGCO friend is doing some digging for me and trying to find out if indeed a metal wing was ever authorised and that will be duly reported when he finds out the results.

I am heading down to Australia in a couple of months to visit friends and my business's down there and will be spending some time at a couple of bases and hopefully will get to take a hop in one of the F/A-18s (hope, hope!). I will also, as I said, be speaking with at least four former emplyoees of K.G. Luke and if I am lucky one of the relatives of the founder as well. It will be a busy trip for sure!

The reason why I still stand behind my statement that the hallmark is fake is I have collected Commonwealth insignia for far longer than I have been collecting US insignia. I actually lived in Australia for 2 years and had ample opportunity to see all of the various insignia that K.G. Luke made (both from the WWII period and up into the 1960's) mainly having to do with law enforcement and sporting endeavors (he was a great lover and supporter of sport and was in fact an administrator of the primary Cricket League in Australia when he died. Additionally K.G.Luke has been heavilly faked by people making police badges for the various Australian States especially those made for New South Wales. This has been known since the 1970's (Sir Kenneth passed away in 1971 and almost immediately fakes started popping up). So for that and a few other facts that I will hold in reserve, I will maintain my opinion.


Cheers
Gary


Howdy Gary,

Irrespective of what the good employees of Luke may recall, Russ and others have made a very strong argument, including well reasoned and well presented historical proof and analysis baked up by concrete examples, proving that the use of these circular hallmarks are not a recent fantasy such that "no one has ever seen a similar hallmark from K.G. Luke until about a year ago, when all of a sudden these start showing up" and "no one has seen another in 65 years, and yet in the last 6 months they have all of a sudden popped up"; statements you made when you so vehemently attacked those of us who were less then totally convinced that these wings are in fact fake. A number of your absolutes, such as WHEN these hallmarks showed up (within the last few years) as well as construction of Luke wings (never making 2-piece wings), have been carefully and thoughtfully debunked. With all due respect, you made some very strong accusations and statements of opinion (and accused those of us (me) with less than total acceptance of your dogma, as being histronic) and so I am not so inclined to let you totally off the hook now. :rolleyes: (again said with all respect and civility) B)

While I still remain unsure as to whether or not ALL the recent wings are actually vintage, the FACTS on the ground now almost totally support the hypothesis that at least SOME of the the "circular hallmarked" wings were, in fact, present well before "a few years ago". If that is so, then one of your basic assumptions, that "no else has ever seen a similar hallmark, till just recently" is in fact, absolutely incorrect.

Furthermore, the facts on the ground also indicate that a wide range of wings and insignia made by K.G. Luke utilized an equally wide range of patterns and marking styles, which also suggests that your statement that "in the hallmarks that have been presented that we know to be original, they all follow a basic pattern. Whether it was made prior to WWII or in the 1950's the elements that make up the hallmark are the same. They may have used a Melb. on one or a full Melbourne on another but the fonts are the same as is the size. Till now" is also not strictly correct. As Russ and others have carefully presented, it seems clear that KG Luke utilized multiple styles of markings on their insignia. They are not all the same and variation does exist.

This, on one hand, disproves one of your core arguments that KG Luke ONLY used a relatively small number of marking styles--those that you have seen, at least. On the other hand, your counter argument if we are to accept the circular hallmark as being vintage then the hallmarks should follow similar patterns--turns out to be in fact true, since the circular hallmarks of post WWII-RAAF wings are very similar to WWII vintage USAAF wings. Clearly not identical, but clearly from the same "basic pattern" as it were.

Perhaps one could continue to counter-argue that those wings that have been presented by Rustywings and JLeng and that can be seen in a variety of other independent mediums (such as Russ Huff's various works on wings from the 80's and 90's) are simply fakes that originate from more than "a few years ago". Or one could just a easily apply some basic scientific thought experiments or logical constructs (minus of course the institutional bias) and conclude that perhaps, just PERHAPS these wings are good vintage WWII wings. Just as perhaps, KG Luke also likely made "2-piece wings" as proven in some other posts on this thread.

The point is that you assured us that these wings were absolutely fake, and were being made within the last few years, and that no other LG Luke insignia EVER used even similar patterns or fonts. Sadly, in each case, the facts suggest otherwise. One could, if they were invested in a particular argument, continue to alter the basic assumptions. For example, one could now say that these are fakes, but have been made much later than a year or two ago, or that any wings that share similar fonts (such as post war insignia) are simply similar fakes, and are not part of an..."institutional identity", as it were. But you were so adamant! ;) I would hate for you to let facts and data get in the way of your hypothesis.

Again, as I said before, I still feel that the jury is out for me on a number of these wings. I would think long and hard about dropping big money on wings like this and I would very carefully study them based on their own merits. Just my 2 cents.

Patrick


Edited by Gary Cain, 25 August 2009 - 08:16 PM.


#54 pfrost

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 09:49 PM

Hi Gary

I can't speak for RAAF regulations, but after abou 5 minutes on Google, I found this: http://www.defence.g...ries/story1.htm

This is a recent METAL RAAF aircrew brevet with the Southern Cross in the center. A metal wing of very similar construction to what Russ shows: http://wapedia.mobi/...ircrew_brevet#2. I am sure if I was so inclined, I could in fact find photos of other RAAF pilots wearing similar metal wings.

I also found this: http://www.diggerhis...adges/raaf2.htm

So clearly, RAAF pilots (and aircrews) DO in fact wear metal wings. Thus, it is more than likley that Russ' badges are good. Your ONLY basis for them to be reproductions are that they are inconvenient to your narrative.

To me, it still seems that your only "fact" is that you have never seen this hallmark on a badge until a year or so (or metal RAAF wings, or 2-piece Luke wings), yet time and time again, other evidence is presented to the contrary, which you quickly aand conveniently dismiss with out any counter evidence.

However, it seems that OTHER people have seen these wings with these hallmarks many years ago, and OTHER people have found different insignia with similar hallmarks (that are featured being held by newly minted RAAF pilots in the official RAAF newspaper).

I think the point is no longer to convince you, as your mind is clearly made up.

Best regards

Patrick

Attached Images

  • 02_brevet.jpg
  • raaf.jpg

Edited by pfrost, 25 August 2009 - 09:57 PM.


#55 Gary Cain

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 11:13 PM

Hi Patrick,

I even have that page favourited and completely forgot it! I also sent that to my WINCO friend as well! All that aside. I have handled probably 3-4 thousand Luke insignia over the years. And in that time frame you would think that that particular hallmark would have shown up. Also I have yet to see any other Luke hallmark with a date on it. I have been racking my brain and other than the Canadian WWI insignia made by Birks and Scully can think of no other hallmarks with a date on them(and I believe they stopped that in 1916). I have never claimed to have handled everything nor have I claimed to know everything but I have handled far more than most. I just put in a request to the RAAF Museum to see when the metal brevets were adopted as well because I am curious. I havn't been there for about 17 years now and am obviously not very current!

Finally we all make mistakes as your experience with the fake balloon wing and dogtag will attest. You defended those very vigourously as well. And I will defend my position just as hard. And if I am proven wrong I will duly report it. My mind is not made up on the matter and to accuse me of that is akin to saying I will lie to win an argument. That is intellectually dishonest and that my good man I am not!

Fortunately I will be able to do some primary research with employees and hopefully get my hand on some company records as well. I have to admit I was taken aback at your apparent disregard for what those who made the items would have to say as they were the people who actually made them but hey that's you. Your friend Mr. Huff I think would not be so cavalier as he has written several books and knows the value of primary research.

Cheers

Gary

Hi Gary

I can't speak for RAAF regulations, but after abou 5 minutes on Google, I found this: http://www.defence.g...ries/story1.htm

This is a recent METAL RAAF aircrew brevet with the Southern Cross in the center. A metal wing of very similar construction to what Russ shows: http://wapedia.mobi/...ircrew_brevet#2. I am sure if I was so inclined, I could in fact find photos of other RAAF pilots wearing similar metal wings.

I also found this: http://www.diggerhis...adges/raaf2.htm

So clearly, RAAF pilots (and aircrews) DO in fact wear metal wings. Thus, it is more than likley that Russ' badges are good. Your ONLY basis for them to be reproductions are that they are inconvenient to your narrative.

To me, it still seems that your only "fact" is that you have never seen this hallmark on a badge until a year or so (or metal RAAF wings, or 2-piece Luke wings), yet time and time again, other evidence is presented to the contrary, which you quickly aand conveniently dismiss with out any counter evidence.

However, it seems that OTHER people have seen these wings with these hallmarks many years ago, and OTHER people have found different insignia with similar hallmarks (that are featured being held by newly minted RAAF pilots in the official RAAF newspaper).

I think the point is no longer to convince you, as your mind is clearly made up.

Best regards

Patrick


Edited by Gary Cain, 25 August 2009 - 11:14 PM.


#56 pfrost

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 05:24 AM

Again,as is typical with you, you resort to ad hominem attacks and spurious arguments to support an increasingly untenable position. Your appeals that you have handled 1000s of KG Luke insignia and that you are a scientist are meaningless. Many of us on this forum have handled 1000's of wings as well, and many of us have formal scientific training--thus OUR opinion has just as much sway as YOUR opinion. You offer no proof, no examples, you brandish the "expertice" of an RAAF wingcommander who is apparently oblivious to what many of his officers and enlisted men have pinned on their uniform. You offer your opinion as fact, disregard other's evidence as fake, and finally appeal to "experts" that no one knows.

It is almost as you keep asking us, "who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"

In your own words: "The prime problem I have with the metal brevet (the 1952 dated one) that Russ shows is that the RAAF never authorised them. In fact there is no evidence of the Aussies ever having a metallic wing (please feel free to correct me on this if you have evidence I do not)...Furthermore a good friend of mine who is a serving Wing Commander in the RAAF at the current time also has never heard nor seen a metal brevet ever in use in the Royal Australian Air Force. Needless to say that casts kind of a lot of doubt on the wing that Russ has presented. Which in turn makes any wing with that hallmark reeeeaallyy suspect. Don't you think?"

When offered proof to the contrary you say: "I even have that page favourited and completely forgot it! I also sent that to my WINCO friend as well! All that aside."

All that aside! That is your whole point! Which is it? You never saw it before, and other experts told you so....OR you simply forgot? If you forgot something that you said you saw from a year ago (that article was published in 2008), then how can you be so sure you remember every detail of the 1000's of Luke insignia you say you handled. Thus, if you are so obviously wrong about that, then how can we take your word for it now? And again, I quote your own words:

"I have zero doubt that these are fakes of recent manufacture. I have numerous other pieces of insignia (RN, RAAF, Australian Army, etc.) and sports pins made by K.G. Luke and not one of them has the suspect makers mark. Not one. There is no need to go through histrionics and logic constructs. These are fake. K.G. Luke has never (and I very rarely use that term) ever used a similar hallmark on any of their products at any time in their history."

In one regard, it is almost as iff when you say "I KNOW it is a fake" I say, "Alright, now I have no doubt its good, Gary says he has never seen one like it before!".

Frankly, I have seen RAAF insignia with dates on them multiple times, they are not that rare. I am rather shocked that someone of such bredth and depth of all things KG Luke has never seen those. But no doubt, you will explain them away if/when someone posts more examples.


Patrick

Edited by pfrost, 26 August 2009 - 05:29 AM.


#57 pfrost

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:34 AM

Also I have yet to see any other Luke hallmark with a date on it. I have been racking my brain and other than the Canadian WWI insignia made by Birks and Scully can think of no other hallmarks with a date on them(and I believe they stopped that in 1916).


After about 5 minutes of further searching, I found this: http://cas.awm.gov.a...raldry/REL35319

Sure, it is a Stokes and Son wing, not a KG Luke, but it also dates from just after WWII and is historically attributed to a RAAF pilot AND according to the description, has a date on the back of the brevet.

****AND BINGO, here is another historically attributed wing made by KG Luke with the 1952 date. http://cas.awm.gov.a...raldry/REL32912

Thus, at least one other company including KG Luke made these wings in the 1940's and 1950's, with hallmarks that included the date of issue. Which offers a fair amount of support that Russ' wing is not a fantasy and that period RAAF wings had dates on them. Which indicates that Russ' KG Luke wing is a valid insignia and that one can agree, and since you have no proof to the contrary, that at that time they used a similar circular hallmark on issued wings. This further supports the claim that the USAAF-related wings a near identical hallmark are not any where near fantasy pieces made in the last few years.

Patrick

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  • REL35319.jpeg

Edited by pfrost, 26 August 2009 - 08:45 AM.


#58 pfrost

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 09:33 AM

One last point to the moderators. Being aware that this is a US military forum, my point in posting the RAAF insignia is to underline the fact that K G Luke was using hallmarks on their RAAF wings that were similar to the hallmark on the USAAF wing in question. Furthermore, I posted proof that the counter-arguments (1) that RAAF never used metal badges and (2) that in any case, Luke never used dates on their badges, was not correct. Thus, by proving that the opposite is in fact true, then I argue it bolsters the hypothesis that the USAAF wing is vintage to WWII.

On the other hand, if one were to reject the RAAF wings as being fakes (because they have not been seen before), then the concept of the USAAF wing being fake would be supported.

By providing proof that the first case is likely true (that RAAF wings made by Luke used a circular hallmark), then that speaks directly to the question of the USAAF wing's validity.
In any case, I will not post any more RAAF or non-USA insignia on this thread. :rolleyes:

P

#59 Aussie-Wings

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 12:16 PM

Hi Guys,
Have been reading this thread and thought I better add my 2 cents worth as 1) I am an Aussie, 2) I live in Australia, 3) am ex- military (Army), and 4) have been collecting Aust wings for a while.

All Aust Military (Army- AAAvn Navy - RAN, Air Force - RAAF) have both Metal and cloth wings. I can post photos of all but that is against the forum rules. The RAAF first started using metal wings in about 1947/48 with the kings crown on top. Then when the Queen took the thrown in 1952-53? the crown was changed to the Queens crown, but not until 1954. I have only seen dated hallmarks from the late 1940's and 1950's, it appears that the dating was dropped after the 1950's.

So, RAAF have been using metal wing from the late 1940's up to the present date.


AW.

Edited by Aussie-Wings, 26 August 2009 - 12:17 PM.


#60 Gary Cain

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 01:33 PM

Thank you for that. I have been trying to figure out why I never saw them when I was down there. And thank you for the clarification on the dating of the hallmarks. It certainly appears that I am mistaken on the hallmark and that it is probably a real one. That is one of the very nice things about the internet. Stuff that a person would never see is available if you look long enough. I am still looking forward to meeting with the Luke people and am going to try and put together a complete catalogue of their hallmarks. The more I read about KG the more I like the man. He started with 7 employees and they stayed with him to the end (along with about 600 others!).

Cheers
Gary

Hi Guys,
Have been reading this thread and thought I better add my 2 cents worth as 1) I am an Aussie, 2) I live in Australia, 3) am ex- military (Army), and 4) have been collecting Aust wings for a while.

All Aust Military (Army- AAAvn Navy - RAN, Air Force - RAAF) have both Metal and cloth wings. I can post photos of all but that is against the forum rules. The RAAF first started using metal wings in about 1947/48 with the kings crown on top. Then when the Queen took the thrown in 1952-53? the crown was changed to the Queens crown, but not until 1954. I have only seen dated hallmarks from the late 1940's and 1950's, it appears that the dating was dropped after the 1950's.

So, RAAF have been using metal wing from the late 1940's up to the present date.
AW.



#61 Willow

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:38 PM

Hello

First, a warm welcome to Rusty - glad to see you here. Russ is a very keen and knowledgeable collector whose contributions are most welcome.

Second, I an Australian and agree with AW's comment regarding metal and cloth wings. This debate between metal and cloth wings is very old and often gets confused as other Commonwealth nations did use both types during WW2!

To add my bit to the debate.

RE: RAAF wings. Metal and cloth wings were and are used, however cloth wings were only used in WW2.

The Queens and Kings crown were changed around the date that was mentioned. However, some Kings crowns continued to be used and issued until all badges were re-issued with the new crown probably a few years! The Kings crown is WW2 period. A search on Google will reveal when the actual date was that the King became a Queen (the King died & the Queen took reign).

I cannot comment on the 1952 date on the post WW2 wing - not having seen this before.

However, the circle design in question was used on Australian made AAF wings manufactured during the war. I have seen this design on several Luke wings over the years. I also have seen the same circle on other insignia made for the US forces during the war by Luke - in particular USN cap badges and a few rang bars. There are several variations of the Luke motif.

Patrick and Rust are 100% correct in there assessment. :thumbsup:

Good wing hunting to all............Iain (aka Willow)

#62 rustywings

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:31 PM

Iain, thank you for your warm greeting. I hope this discussion will entice you to bring pockets full of vintage K.G. Luke-made USAAF wings to the States on your next visit!

Gary, per your request, I've attached a couple of images of the catch on the RAAF wing with circular hallmark. Included in one image is the back of a Stokes & Sons hallmarked RAAF Pilot wing which is dated 1949. Apparently several Australian based companies dated their insignia after the war and into the mid-1950's. Good luck with your fact-finding mission!

Russ

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  • WINGS_2009_101.jpg


#63 rustywings

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:33 PM

Second attachment.

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  • WINGS_2009_100.jpg


#64 Gary Cain

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:29 PM

Hi Russ,

Thanks for that! I have a bit of a confession to make on this thread I am afraid. I truly believed that the hallmark in question was a fake and defended my position accordingly. However when you posted your wings I have to admit I began to think my position was wrong but it has been my observation that people are so afraid of being wrong that they won't give a hard answer to a question. They will vacilate and in the end no one knows for sure what to think. I saw that happening with this thread as there was a period of almost a month and no real finding appeared to be forthcoming and frankly I wanted to know what the true facts were so I decided to be beligerent and really press the point.

I have noticed in the past that Patrick when he gets riled will do some very good research so I have to admit I used him in that vein. And Patrick when I pointed out your mistake with the balloon pilot wing that was not an ad hominem attack, that was me pointing out that even though you had made a mistake no one thought less of you. In fact my opinion of you went up because of how you handled it! That's why I made the outrageous assertion on Aussie metal wings (Russ if you still have your records you will find one you sold to me about 20-21 years ago give or take) because I knew that would push Patrick over the edge and hopefully get some of the Australians to chime in as well. I think it worked pretty well.

Now I still believe that the hallmark is not a WWII period hallmark but I now fully accept that it is a legit hallmark. So now lets hash out when they first appear. I have had a couple of correspondences with Monica Walsh who is the Curator of Research for the RAAF Museum and according to her they have no record of when the metal brevets began to be used (I have a letter out to Steve Allan of the Office of Air Force History to see if they have records on it) your 1952 dated brevet prompted that because my recollection had been they started in the 1960's but AW asserts they began in the late 40's so that will be fun to sort out.

Willow you assert that you have seen the hallmark on USN insignia from the WWII period. I would love to see some of those if you have them. I have four biographical USN groupings with Luke insignia and none of them have the circular hallmark. The groupings are from a submariner, a naval aviator and two are from surface ship officers.


Cheers
Gary

#65 Insigina Hunter

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 04:41 PM

Posted one of these these in Hallmark Ref section...

KG_Lukes_Back.JPG

#66 Insigina Hunter

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 04:42 PM

close up on Maj. pair #1

KG_Maj._Back_1.JPG

#67 Insigina Hunter

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 04:43 PM

Back Maj Insig back #2

KG_Maj._Back_2.JPG

#68 Insigina Hunter

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 04:44 PM

Veterinary Corps back

KG_Vet_Back.JPG

#69 Insigina Hunter

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 08:48 AM

Its topics like this that make this site so great. I think I've learned just as much about KG Luke in this one thread than I have searching anywhere else. I've put up a few more ref pictures up, fortunately I think all can agree are of the WWII period.

Found Rusty's flight surgeon wing to be very intriguing. Notice the same hallmark on the back of the veterinary pin I posted

Edited by Insigina Hunter, 04 November 2010 - 08:49 AM.


#70 triplecanopy

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:57 AM

Does anyone have an authentic KG Luke HM US parachute badge that they would like to share with the forum?  It would be great to view this very uncommon badge.  There is also a Wallace Bishop parachute badge out there somewhere, although I've never seen one.

Thanks. Robert



#71 Wharfmaster

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:25 PM

Hi Everyone, I have been watching this post with quite an interest since I have recently aquired a bombardier wing with the "third" hallmark. I would like to make my case on the possibility of this being a correct hallmark for the period in question.

I obtained this wing with a two in gunner wing from a seller on eBay who sells mostly instruments. I searched his feedback and did not see any other militaria bought or sold recently. I contacted the seller asking where he had obtained the wings. He responded that they had belonged to his father, a ball turret gunner during the war, and did not know where he had gotten them. He also wondered why they sold for more than other similar wings listed on eBay. I would like to think I am a pretty good judge of character, and I believe his response is genuine.

The wing is a two piece, die struck, sterling bombardiers wing. It is hallmarked sterling and with the KG Luke hallmark in question. The wing shows "wear and tear" I believe would be hard to reproduce (my opinion). Now everyone grab their wing collecting bible "More Silver Wings Pinks and Greens" and turn to page 134. The TO wing at the top of the page is identical to this wing with the exception that the middle portion of the wing has been cut out and a "T" applied in its place. The wing in my possesion has the bomb and target applied to an observer wing identical to the TO wing shown in the book leading me to believe that they were probalby made from a modified KG Luke observer wing.

As to the lower realized prices on recent auctions, could supply and demand be causing the lower prices? When I first started buying on ebay back in the days of 56k modems Josten Command pilot wings sold for $350+ and now you can get them for less than $200 at times. I lost what I would consider to be very high bids on other wings that are now somewhat common and sell for much less. I attend the local show here in Minneapolis twice a year and cannot remember seeing a KG Luke wing at any of the shows either. Maybe its a regional thing.

John

attachicon.gifkg_front__Medium_.jpg
attachicon.gifkg_back__Medium_.jpg
attachicon.gifkg_side__Medium_.jpg
attachicon.gifkg_sterl..._Medium_.jpg

 

I just purchased a Luke wing almost identical to this one at the local coin shop today. The only difference, my wing has a silver open clasp, not brass. It also shows old natural age and has not been polished thankfully. When I get a photo, I will post it.

 


 



#72 Dave

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 01:29 PM

Resurrecting this from the dead a bit. What does the jury think of the hallmark on this hat badge? The casting looks very poor...I'm not comfortable with it.
 

Thoughts??

 

Dave

 

http://www.usmilitar...s/#entry1758903



#73 pfrost

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 05:05 PM

Hard to see the pictures. 



#74 Dave

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 05:22 PM

Hard to see the pictures. 


I thought they were good but we can probably have the OP get bigger pics...

#75 Jay Seay

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 09:07 PM

And for all evaluators, please compare this hallmark as it's being compared to the left looking Eagle.

 

http://www.usmilitar...t-badges/page-2

 

Moderator Dave initially agreed the hallmark was spot on on the left looking eagle, but has presented these as being authentic, so 

I would assume that means the hallmark on his example of the right looking eagle would be authentic as well. 

 

A start to finish read of the post would be helpful. 

 

Thanks to all.




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