WWI DALLAS BB&B PATTERN WING

[joshypogi]

Good Afternoon,

 

I am seriously thinking about reaching deep and buy this wing. First off, I would like to get everyone's opinion if possible. Any comments is greatly appreciated.

[joshypogi]

more pics..

[joshypogi]

last pic..

[pconrad02]

Check here: http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/p...aleSectionNo=1#

 

For a known good one

[jbet38]

last pic..

 

Jason,

 

There are several things that don't look right about this wing.

 

I wouldn't advise getting serious about it.

[usaf70]

What exactly is not liked about this wing?

 

 

Jason,

 

There are several things that don't look right about this wing.

 

I wouldn't advise getting serious about it.

[pfrost]

What exactly is not liked about this wing?

 

Frankly, I would have to disagree and say the only thing wrong about this wing is the price (by about $1000). In my humble opinion it is a perfectly legit WWI Dallas wing in pretty good shape.

 

Patrick

[bschwartz]

I would say that this one is a bit perplexing. The details seem pretty sharp on it but this pit bothers me in the wing. I know it's nit-picky but when it comes to Dallas wings the fakes are so good that you have to be nit-picky. It could very well just be a nick in the finish but I'd want to hold it in my hands and look at it closely to be sure.

 

[pfrost]

Howdy Bob,

 

You know what I think that pit it, I think that it is a small gap in some old silver polish residue in the wing. If you carefully look between each winglet (my red arrows) you will see a cut (first arrow on right). In some of the cuts, you can see a greyish-silver residue (that I think is old silver polish gunk) that has been deposited towards the top of each of those cuts (second and third arrows from right). At the point of the pit, I think you have a small hole in some of that old polish residue. I have seen similar effects in some of my wings where the old polish gets in the recess and cracks of a wing. I always like to see that because it means the wings have likely been polished. The effect of the polish gunk is clearer if you really study the picture in post#3, as your red circle blocks some of the detail, Bob.

 

For me, I ALWAYS study the small beads that go around the wing. If they are all basically uniform in shape and size, then the wing is likely good (IMHO). When the wings lack that uniform beading (because the cast wings are difficult to capture that detail). In this case, I think the wing is perfectly fine (I would want to hold in in my hands to be sure). Still, I bought a couple of nice wings from this guy and was very pleased and if the price wasn't almost 2X normal retail, I wouldn't be to concerned about giving it a try on this one. The thing is, some good Dallas wings have been showing up on ebay on a regular basis over the last few years and they typically sell from $1200-1750 depending on interest. So patience would be my advice.

[pfrost]

Of course, we have had a number of discussions about Dallas wings in the past. Here is a pretty good thread:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...0wings&st=0

 

And this was a composite I made of what I consider fake and real Dallas style wings. Picture is from this thread http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...f+new+wwi+wings post #19 Panels A-D are what I believe are all good Dallas style wings, the bottom two shown in E are fakes.

 

Patrick

[bschwartz]

Interesting theory Patrick and you just might be right. I guess this one would come down to holding it in your hand and giving it a good once over with a loupe. I agree that the beading around the shield and wing are very impressive. At first blush that's a huge plus for this wing. The devil will be in the details.

[jbet38]

What exactly is not liked about this wing?

 

If we aim at the goal of aiding collectors of WWI wings, this example raises some issues that would be helpful to discuss further here. Those who think these wings are period and authentic are certainly entitled to their opinion. They may have justifiable reasons for doing so that we are not aware of.

 

But it appears there are logical questions about their authenticity, particularly concerning signs of genuine age, the lack of surviving finishes, apparently careless craftsmanship, and possible construction flaws.

 

For starters, here are some main areas that seem to need logical answers or explanations:

 

1.The silver front of these wings looks to be in mint condition, showing no wear. Yet the silver surfaces lack all traces of original frosting, as if someone diligently cleaned off every trace of frosting, including all the areas adjacent to the gold US, all around and in between the minute beading, and deep into other hard-to-reach crevasses. Does any trace of frosting remain, even when these wings are inspected through a jeweler’s loupe?

 

2.The presence of silver polish in crevasses of silver items usually suggests age and wear, but not always. That technique, as we all know, is one of the oldest tricks in the faker’s toolbox. Unless the silver polish itself is old and dirty, then relatively fresh polish residue on WWI wings would not be a good sign.

 

3.While on the subject of polish, there appears to be no trace of silver polish staining the cloth immediately underlying the silver, which seems surprising if all the original frosting on the silver surfaces has been diligently polished away. While the cloth covering the edges of the backing plate does show minor wear/polish residue, the rest of the cloth-covered backing on these presumably 91-year-old wings appears in these photos to be unfaded and almost pristine.

 

4.The leather backing on these wings also does not appear in these photos to be almost 100 years old. For antique leather, we usually want to see signs of age, which include dryness, chipping, and wear at the edges. Instead, the leather patch here looks surprisingly fresh, soft, shiny, and therefore possibly (?) new.

 

5.As on similar Dallas wings, the separate wings are first stamped in sheet silver and then sawn to create the gaps now visible between the feathers. The gaps sawn in these wings, however, unlike the gaps observed on most published originals, appear to be sawn to irregular lengths and do not match left and right.

 

6.The pin hole spotted and circled on the right wing might be another sign of trouble, but as Patrick suggested also could be a bubble in the polish residue. Until someone has a chance to inspect these wings up close, this may be another troubling question about these wings.

 

Since I have no involvement with this pending transaction, the issues raised here are for clarification and informed debate, to improve the knowledge of the collecting fraternity. If those who are categorizing these wings as period and authentic would kindly tackle these issues and provide reasonable explanations, then perhaps we all can comfortably conclude that these wings are authentically of the WWI period and not a potential future problem for their new owner.

[pfrost]

Howdy, your points are well taken.

 

I still have to respectfully disagree. I think these wings are exactly what they should look like. Of course, all the caveats apply that without holding it in hand, it is hard to know for sure...yada yada yada.

 

1. As for "wear" on the wings, it is more than likely that these wings were only worn for a few years, if that. I suspect that these Dallas type wings were likely not manufactured until 1917 or so, maybe even a bit later than that. By the end of 1918, early 1919, most of the pilot who would have been trained for WWI would have mustered out. Thus to expect a lot of "wear" would not be a reasonable expectation.

 

2. If you do look closely at the tip of the feathers and especially just to the right of the "S" you will see some areas where the original silver frosting seems to remain.

 

3. No way for me to tell if the silver polish is new or not, but to my eye it looks old and were I would expect to see it deposited. I also see traces of silver polish around some of the lower edges of the shield caked around the small beads.

 

4. The leather looks just like the leather on my dallas 1/2 wings. Typically, the leather is very thin and glued tightly to the back of the wings. Since I would suspect that these wings were likely NOT worn after 1919 or so, their is no reason to expect any wear on them (despite being about 90 years old).

 

5. What is harder to fake is the wear on the fabric that wraps the wing. Around the edge, you can clearly see the wear on the fabric. Look at the upper edge above the right wing, then compare the fabric between the shield and the wing. The area above the wing is worn but the area between the wing and shield is not.

 

6. To my eye, the gaps look uneven because some of them are filled with polish residue (IMO). If you carefully look at where the cuts seem to end, you see they all pretty much align.

 

Again, this is just based on what I can see from the pictures. I also have no vested interest in this transaction. But my interaction with this dealer with other wings was very good and he did offer a very reasonable return policy.

 

Still, I think this is a perfect example of a good Dallas wing (thus the very high price).

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Patrick

[hawk3370]

Frankly, I would have to disagree and say the only thing wrong about this wing is the price (by about $1000). In my humble opinion it is a perfectly legit WWI Dallas wing in pretty good shape.

 

Patrick

 

Patrick,

I hesitate to chime in on this discussion having not actually handled the wing in question. However, I would have to agree with you on this one. I see nothing that would indicate a "fake". This would be the BB&B strike and it looks right to me. As for the price, I feel that a legit "Dallas" wing should draw between $1000 and $1200 on todays market, so if I was in the market (which I am not) and the dealer has a good return policy, I would take a chance on them. Notice that the wear on the shoulders is equal on both wings and the wear to the wool along the edges is consistant throughout.

 

Terry

[John Cooper]

This wing popped up in a conversation last night and was focused on the photo in post #9. I did not look at the full size photo until then I would have to agree that it looks like lots of polish residue which from the photos appears to be a puddy grey color. It would appears someone took some care to polish this wing up but did not complete the job. I recall the Dallas wing form the Campbell collection which may be something to match this aginst.

 

Additionally the phot is post #2 appears to show some solder at the base of the US which would suggest they are attached vs. part of the shield itself.

 

John

[joshypogi]

I beleive Patrick is right about the wing. I tried to take better pictures of the wing. There seems to be a lot of gunk between the crevices of the wing.

[joshypogi]

Here are the pics...

[joshypogi]

more pics..

[joshypogi]

more pics..

[joshypogi]

more pics...

[joshypogi]

more pics...

[joshypogi]

Does anyone have anymore comments. I really aprreciate everyones input.

[ckarraker]

Hello. I am new to this forum and hope my participation/questions are not inappropriate. I am going through all my family memorabilia to put together a collection of our family military realia. I have my grandfather's WWI uniform coat (tailored by Wolf Brothers of Kansas City.) Sadly, moths have enjoyed it. It is devoid of any insignia other than his aviator wings. I was researching them when I came across this forum. From you all I have learned that the are called Dallas wings. I read you posts discussing polish on some of the wings and wondered if it would be inappropriate to polish Granddady's wings before putting them in a case?

Thank you for any advice you can give me.

Cindy

[hawk3370]

Hello. I am new to this forum and hope my participation/questions are not inappropriate. I am going through all my family memorabilia to put together a collection of our family military realia. I have my grandfather's WWI uniform coat (tailored by Wolf Brothers of Kansas City.) Sadly, moths have enjoyed it. It is devoid of any insignia other than his aviator wings. I was researching them when I came across this forum. From you all I have learned that the are called Dallas wings. I read you posts discussing polish on some of the wings and wondered if it would be inappropriate to polish Granddady's wings before putting them in a case?

Thank you for any advice you can give me.

Cindy

 

Cindy,

Your grandfather would not have worn them in a tarnished state. Some collectors go nuts when one suggest polishing a wing or other piece of memorbilia, however in the sterling wing area my opinion is that since no self respecting pilot would wear tarnished wings I would CAREFULLY clean them and use a cuetip or something such as that to remove as much of the tarnish as possible. I clean the wings in my collection once a year depending on how much they have started to darken.

 

Would appreciate it if you could post a picture of the wings in their current state. And if I might ask what was your grandfathers name? Will see what info I might have on him.

Terry

[ckarraker]

Cindy,

Your grandfather would not have worn them in a tarnished state. Some collectors go nuts when one suggest polishing a wing or other piece of memorbilia, however in the sterling wing area my opinion is that since no self respecting pilot would wear tarnished wings I would CAREFULLY clean them and use a cuetip or something such as that to remove as much of the tarnish as possible. I clean the wings in my collection once a year depending on how much they have started to darken.

 

Would appreciate it if you could post a picture of the wings in their current state. And if I might ask what was your grandfathers name? Will see what info I might have on him.

Terry

 

 

Terry,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know how to post a picture. The wings are a full (not half) set. The beading appears to me to be slightly finer/smaller than the pictures on this thread. The beading extends past the feathers on both sides. At the top of the wings there seem to be multiple small feathers (not just 3 as I have seen in some photos). I honestly can't tell what metal the US is. The U looks yellowish but the letters are also tarnished like the wings (??). The material the metal is backed on is in excellent condition on the front of the wings. On the back, the fabric on both tips is worn/rubbed. The diamond stamped leather (??) over the pin back is in good condition and tightly fixed. There are 4 holes in the material that may be moths as on the uniform.

 

My Grandfather was William Forest Brelsford. If my facts are accurate he was inducted into the Army in Boston, Mass. on 1-2-1917 and attended the School of Military AERO at the University of Illinois. He was discharged as a 2nd Lt. 11/10/1918.

 

That is all I know.

 

Cindy