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Bogus dog tag?


Cobrahistorian
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Cobrahistorian

Hey all,

 

I was looking through eBay last night and came across a listing for a small grouping of items from a Jewish soldier. After looking at the Dog Tag, I thought it was a fake. During WWII, Jewish soldiers that had their religious preference on their dogtag (many chose not to) had an "H" for Hebrew, not a "J" for Jewish. Everything I've seen points to these being fakes. There's even a book written in 1947 by a Jewish Chaplain called "With an H On My Dogtag". Anyone ever seen a legit tag with a J on it, or is this junk like I suspect?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Group-1942-43-Dog-Tags...alenotsupported

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X_redcatcher

I reamber reading about some US POW's that the Germans picked out for a laber camp, anyone with a H on there dog tags was singled out. I think that was in Berga. Not sure of the title of the book. I never saw a J on one thats for sure

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Cobrahistorian
I reamber reading about some US POW's that the Germans picked out for a laber camp, anyone with a H on there dog tags was singled out. I think that was in Berga. Not sure of the title of the book. I never saw a J on one thats for sure

 

Yeah, the Berga GIs have finally gotten their long-overdue recognition. CNN.com has been running a great series of articles on Berga GIs for the past few months.

 

Jon

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I'm going to stand up for the tags in question and state that they are undoubtedly ORIGINAL. Looking at the group tells me that it came right out of the woodwork.

I'm not going to say that dogtags can't and don't get faked, but why in the world would somebody bother to fake this pair of tags? Fakers go after big rewards- naming tags to Medal of Honor recipients or soldiers from largely unpopulated states like Nevada or North Dakota. A set of tags from a guy out of Phillie with no unit info etc. is a total waste of time.

Also, I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have seen unusual things on dogtags over the years. I've seen pairs of tags with one service number not matching the other (transposed numbers); I've seen a soldier (obviously post WWII) whose religion was listed as "Batpist" and even one listing a religion as "pedestrian" when he was Presbyterian. These tags were typed out by clerks in huge numbers. I can easily believe that the clerk who did Private Seidman's tags simply typed a "J" because the soldier was Jewish, just like he typed a "C" for the Catholics and a "P" for the Protestants. I have known a lot of people of the Jewish faith and have never heard any of them refer to themselves as parcticing Hebrews.

My two cents.

Allan

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Cobrahistorian
I'm going to stand up for the tags in question and state that they are undoubtedly ORIGINAL. Looking at the group tells me that it came right out of the woodwork.

I'm not going to say that dogtags can't and don't get faked, but why in the world would somebody bother to fake this pair of tags? Fakers go after big rewards- naming tags to Medal of Honor recipients or soldiers from largely unpopulated states like Nevada or North Dakota. A set of tags from a guy out of Phillie with no unit info etc. is a total waste of time.

Also, I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have seen unusual things on dogtags over the years. I've seen pairs of tags with one service number not matching the other (transposed numbers); I've seen a soldier (obviously post WWII) whose religion was listed as "Batpist" and even one listing a religion as "pedestrian" when he was Presbyterian. These tags were typed out by clerks in huge numbers. I can easily believe that the clerk who did Private Seidman's tags simply typed a "J" because the soldier was Jewish, just like he typed a "C" for the Catholics and a "P" for the Protestants. I have known a lot of people of the Jewish faith and have never heard any of them refer to themselves as parcticing Hebrews.

My two cents.

Allan

 

 

Allan,

 

Batpist?! That's hysterical! I'm wondering about this, simply because it was specified NOT to put a "J" on servicemen's dogtags. I realize the motivation behind fakers and that this is a fairly ordinary grouping, however, knowing how they were marked (being a currently serving Jewish officer and the grandson of a WWII Jewish Infantry Officer) this struck me as particularly odd.

 

For the record, as a bit of historical flair, my dogtags say "Hebrew". :D

 

Jon

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KASTAUFFER

Those tags look good to me. Those are monel tags too. I have not seen any fakes made on monel blanks.

 

Kurt

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Allan,

 

Batpist?! That's hysterical! I'm wondering about this, simply because it was specified NOT to put a "J" on servicemen's dogtags. I realize the motivation behind fakers and that this is a fairly ordinary grouping, however, knowing how they were marked (being a currently serving Jewish officer and the grandson of a WWII Jewish Infantry Officer) this struck me as particularly odd.

 

For the record, as a bit of historical flair, my dogtags say "Hebrew". :D

 

Jon

 

Jon,

You well know that these days, you can have just about anything put on a dogtag that you want when it comes to religions. I have seen Druid, pagan, agnostic, and even a "First Christian" because that was the name of the church that the soldier attended.

I'm not arguing that the "J" wasn't supposed to be prohibited from appearing on tags, just saying that this sort of thing DID happen.

I love it when I see these little jewelry type boxes of insignia come out of the woodwork- they are like tiny treasure chests.

Allan

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I have a WW2 dog tag with PR for the religion. There's a number of oddities out there, and I would wager that the vast majority are real.

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Cobrahistorian

Excellent, I appreciate the insight guys. Again, wasn't screaming "FAKE!" just wanted to know because it struck me as odd.

 

And yeah... they're even allowing "Jedi" nowadays....

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Excellent, I appreciate the insight guys. Again, wasn't screaming "FAKE!" just wanted to know because it struck me as odd.

 

And yeah... they're even allowing "Jedi" nowadays....

 

Jon,

 

They are odd but it would be real hard to get that patina right (no not impossible, just real hard) on the tags.

 

Yes H was correct for the period, and no I have not seen a J before, however I would not say anything is IMPOSSIBLE anymore. I had a Chaplain who had NO Pref on his tags, just to make his wife happy.

 

What do you think of the CIB, it is also a little strange.

 

A Yeshiva boy in Combat Arms,

 

T-Bone

 

PS Wait- I can get JEDI on my tags now?!?!?!? YES!

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Cobrahistorian
Jon,

 

They are odd but it would be real hard to get that patina right (no not impossible, just real hard) on the tags.

 

Yes H was correct for the period, and no I have not seen a J before, however I would not say anything is IMPOSSIBLE anymore. I had a Chaplain who had NO Pref on his tags, just to make his wife happy.

 

What do you think of the CIB, it is also a little strange.

 

A Yeshiva boy in Combat Arms,

 

T-Bone

 

PS Wait- I can get JEDI on my tags now?!?!?!? YES!

 

Thought the CIB looked ok for being an embroidered piece that was made somewhere in the Pacific. Come to think of it, since he served in the PTO, that may explain the J instead of the H. Not as big a deal there. (Although from what Lester Tenney told me, the Japanese were almost as bad with their Anti-Semitism).

 

As for bein Combat Arms, my favorite has always been Lt. Philip M. Goldstein's P-38J, nicknamed "Jewboy" (in both English and German). Might have to paint that on the side of my bird when we head downrange.... ;)

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Thought the CIB looked ok for being an embroidered piece that was made somewhere in the Pacific. Come to think of it, since he served in the PTO, that may explain the J instead of the H. Not as big a deal there. (Although from what Lester Tenney told me, the Japanese were almost as bad with their Anti-Semitism).

 

As for bein Combat Arms, my favorite has always been Lt. Philip M. Goldstein's P-38J, nicknamed "Jewboy" (in both English and German). Might have to paint that on the side of my bird when we head downrange.... ;)

 

"...since he served in the PTO, that may explain the J instead of the H. Not as big a deal there...."

 

When the clerk stamped your dog tags in basic, he had no idea where you were going to end up, PTO, MTO, ETO, CONUS, or injured/killed in training. "J" for PTO service is erroneous speculation and misleading to the new collectors on the Forum. A clerk did it that way just because it's the Army.

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FYI from NARA, at least he is a real guy ^_^

 

Field Title Value Meaning

ARMY SERIAL NUMBER 33203527 33203527

NAME SEIDMAN#JOSEPH########## SEIDMAN#JOSEPH##########

RESIDENCE: STATE 31 MARYLAND

RESIDENCE: COUNTY 007 BALTIMORE CITY

PLACE OF ENLISTMENT 3110 BALTIMORE MARYLAND

DATE OF ENLISTMENT DAY 01 01

DATE OF ENLISTMENT MONTH 07 07

DATE OF ENLISTMENT YEAR 42 42

GRADE: ALPHA DESIGNATION PVT# Private

GRADE: CODE 8 Private

BRANCH: ALPHA DESIGNATION BI# Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA

BRANCH: CODE 00 Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA

FIELD USE AS DESIRED # #

TERM OF ENLISTMENT 5 Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law

LONGEVITY ### ###

SOURCE OF ARMY PERSONNEL 0 Civil Life

NATIVITY 32 PENNSYLVANIA

YEAR OF BIRTH 06 06

RACE AND CITIZENSHIP 1 White, citizen

EDUCATION 1 1 year of high school

CIVILIAN OCCUPATION 736 Semiskilled chauffeurs and drivers, bus, taxi, truck, and tractor

MARITAL STATUS 6 Single, without dependents

COMPONENT OF THE ARMY 7 Selectees (Enlisted Men)

CARD NUMBER # #

BOX NUMBER 0625 0625

FILM REEL NUMBER 2.289 2.289

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Cobrahistorian
"...since he served in the PTO, that may explain the J instead of the H. Not as big a deal there...."

 

When the clerk stamped your dog tags in basic, he had no idea where you were going to end up, PTO, MTO, ETO, CONUS, or injured/killed in training. "J" for PTO service is erroneous speculation and misleading to the new collectors on the Forum. A clerk did it that way just because it's the Army.

 

Ever been issued a replacement set of dogtags when you got to a new station? Not erroneous speculation at all. I've gotten 2 new sets, once when I got to my unit and once when I got to Rucker. It is entirely plausible. I never said it was for PTO service, just that the J might be explained as there wasn't such a concern in the PTO and it may have slipped through.

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I'm just tossing this out there as a possibility. Could it be "J" for Jehovah's Witnesses?

 

-D

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PaulsAirsoftArmory

I don't think it was mentioned before, but perhaps it is a typo! IIRC, the dog tag machines have the same key layout as a standard "qwerty" keyboard. Look at your keyboard, the H is next to the J. Perhaps, in the midst of making hundreds of dog tags per day, the worker hit the wrong key. I know that my Grandfather's dog tag has a J instead of a W (or a F, depends on date) as the middle initial. I think that is a completely original tag with a simple typo! :think:

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Cobrahistorian
I don't think it was mentioned before, but perhaps it is a typo! IIRC, the dog tag machines have the same key layout as a standard "qwerty" keyboard. Look at your keyboard, the H is next to the J. Perhaps, in the midst of making hundreds of dog tags per day, the worker hit the wrong key. I know that my Grandfather's dog tag has a J instead of a W (or a F, depends on date) as the middle initial. I think that is a completely original tag with a simple typo! :think:

 

:huh:

Now why didn't I think of that?

I went ahead and put a bid in on it.

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  • 5 years later...

I know this is an old thread but in reading it I just wanted to point out that there are a good many examples of dog tags to Jewish soldiers with a "J" for preference. It's just something that happened. I have 2 actually.

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Yeah, the Berga GIs have finally gotten their long-overdue recognition. CNN.com has been running a great series of articles on Berga GIs for the past few months.

 

Jon

 

There was a documentary several years ago on them. I wish I could remember the title and channel.

 

There was at least one soldier that went with them who actually wasn't Jewish. He was a Christian, and I think they interviewed him as part of the documentary.

 

Yet another sad chapter in the history of the war.

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I saw a rubbing of one in an IDPF that was "RC" which I assume was Roman Catholic.....when C was the official designtion. I would say when a guy was getting a replacment tag made by the Tec 5 at the battalion aid station......anything goes.....whatever that guy feels looks right is good to go. Now if a guy offered me a box of 100 oddities like this I'd run like hell.

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  • 8 months later...

I have one tag that belonged to a member of the Japanese American unit 442RCT that has B for Buddist and another that has NS for None Specified. There seems to be exceptions to the rules.

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