The "Sunflower patch"

[Proud Kraut]

Hope I don't bother you too much with another of my “patch-questions”. Sometimes it's harder to understand things over here.

I have had this patch, depicted below, in my collection for a long time now. I have heard somewhere that this insignia is called “Sunflower patch”.

[Proud Kraut]

It's my understanding that this patch was sold by Patch King/Hobby Guild for collectors. In one of their catalogs I found this patch designated as “89th Division (World War I)”. Regarding to how many patches were drawn upside down, I think they were not too carefully with these patch designations.

 

Anyway, in William and Kurt Keller”s book (US Army Shoulder Patches...) I only found the “Rolling W” design for the 89th Div, even in WW I. One of those “Midwest Division” patches has a small sunflower sewn on. It's IDed as 353rd InfRgt that fought with the Division in WW I and WW II (unfortunately I only have a poor copy of one of these patches).

I learned that the sunflower is the symbol for Kansas where the 353rd was stationed. Would make sense so far.

 

Believing that Patch King etc. sold machine embroidered “reproductions” of WW I handmade patches, I would like to know the following:

 

1.Was the sunflower patch worn by elements of the Division in WW I or after the war (looks like my patch was sewn on, don't know if on an uniform or an blanket)?

2.If so, was the patch worn by the 353rd InfRgt?

3.If not, why did Patch King “use” this patch design?

 

I'm sure an ASMIC article about this patch will exist but I couldn't t find anything in my Trading Post issues.

Thank you one more time for your help and your patience!

[Teamski]

Well, you answered your own question, Lars, hehehehe....

 

-Ski

[Proud Kraut]

Well, you answered your own question, Lars, hehehehe....

 

-Ski

 

Then I expressed myself wrong again, lol....

 

I wanted to know, if there was a (handmade) WW I "Sunflower patch" that was worn during the war and later on copied by PK. I have never seen an uniform or a pic of such a patch. In Keller's book nothing is mentioned about a WW I sunflower variant... If such a (handmade) patch did not exist in WW I or after the war, why was it "invented" by PK?

 

In other words: Who wore the patch when?

 

Lars

[Allan H.]

I grew up in Kansas and have seen a lot of Kansas related militaria with both the 35th and 89th Infantry Divisions well represented. The SSI of the 353rd Infantry Regiment of the 89th Division are well known to me. The original patches have a black "W" inside an "O" with the center section between the legs of the "W" having a blue insert applied. In the center of the insert is an embroidered sunflower with yellow petals and a brown or black center.

As far as I know, neither the large fully-embroidered sunflower patch at the begining of this thread, nor the 89th patch with the machine embroidered sunflower are orignal insignia worn by soldiers between World War I and II.

The Kansas Nation Guard does wear a yellow sunflower patch on a blue circular background, but I believe this design to have been approved well after the end of World War II.

I have never encountered an original uniform with either the fully embroidered or machine embroidered on twill versions of the 35th or 89th division insignia that were sold by Patch King or Hobby Guild. I believe that they are fully contrived for the collecting market.

Allan

[Steverino]

I grew up in Kansas and have seen a lot of Kansas related militaria with both the 35th and 89th Infantry Divisions well represented. The SSI of the 353rd Infantry Regiment of the 89th Division are well known to me. The original patches have a black "W" inside an "O" with the center section between the legs of the "W" having a blue insert applied. In the center of the insert is an embroidered sunflower with yellow petals and a brown or black center.

As far as I know, neither the large fully-embroidered sunflower patch at the begining of this thread, nor the 89th patch with the machine embroidered sunflower are orignal insignia worn by soldiers between World War I and II.

The Kansas Nation Guard does wear a yellow sunflower patch on a blue circular background, but I believe this design to have been approved well after the end of World War II.

I have never encountered an original uniform with either the fully embroidered or machine embroidered on twill versions of the 35th or 89th division insignia that were sold by Patch King or Hobby Guild. I believe that they are fully contrived for the collecting market.

Allan

 

I'd like to add a comment or two here. I am very glad that Allan has spoken on the topic. Not only do I value his thoughts on all aspects of collecting, but here, as a Kansas collector, he would certainly have additional relevant insights. I have but one question about what he postulated. The PK needs no additional descriptions here, but one thing he did well and did often was COPY previously existing insignia. In almost every case we can easily trace his subjects, like the entire color section of the 1919 National Geographic magazine showing illistrations of WWI patches. I don't have that issue sitting in front of me as I write this so I cannot say for certain, but I do not recall seeing the sunflower patch in that issue of the NG.

 

The sunflower is joined by at least one other PK "WWI" patch that, to date, has never been identified with 100% assurity, and that would be the red shield with the black standing bear. The PK made it in both all-embroidered and embroidered on felt. The most reasonable theory advanced so far is that the patch was for one of the independent artillery regiments from WWI, but which one? That is another patch that I have never seen anywhere on an actual WWI uniform.

 

My opinion is that the PK did not dream up those two patches. He copied them from something. The actual subjects of the copied patches may never be known. They could have been drawings of proposed insignia and not real patches. Until someone lucks out and finds the subject(s) in some dusty libraray, we will always have the mystery described so well in the first post on this thread.

 

Patch Johnson

[Proud Kraut]

Allan and Patch Johnson, thank you very much for your statements and the bulk of background informations!

For the younger collectors I would like to add a picture of the patches you mentioned in your posts. Left and Center: Kansas National Guard HQ, Right: The "bear on red shield" patch, that was designated by PK as "Separate Arty Brigade".

 

Thanks again!

 

Lars

[HOLZI]

At first glance it looks like a 9th Infantry Division SSI that has had yellow substituted for the Red and Blue and Black used instead of White in the center. A stretch I know but that's what it looks like :think:

[Allan H.]

Allan and Patch Johnson, thank you very much for your statements and the bulk of background informations!

For the younger collectors I would like to add a picture of the patches you mentioned in your posts. Left and Center: Kansas National Guard HQ, Right: The "bear on red shield" patch, that was designated by PK as "Separate Arty Brigade".

 

Thanks again!

 

Lars

 

Lars,

I am very glad that you were able to post the Kansas and Missouri National Guard patches as they fit very nicely into the discussion of the patch in question. Patch has also made a good point about PK having to have a design to go by in order to copy it. Obviously, PK didn't just go out and make patches based on their own whims. I would GUESS that somewhere, ideas for individual SSI of each state National Guard would have been drawn up and submitted (Perhaps to the National Guard Bureau or to the Quartermaster General's office perhaps?)for consideration. I can easily believe that PK would have had agents somewhere scouting out the insignias to make for their budding customer base.

I'll finish this up with the statement that I am only going off of experience that I have had with Kansas related uniforms and insignia and the "best guesses" as to where the designs could have come from. As far as I am concerned, there is still a bit of a mystery here.

Allan

[Proud Kraut]

@Holzi: 9th InfDiv variant was indeed my first thought too, when I saw the patch the first time...

 

@Allan: I absolutely understand what you mean, yes it might has been a draft or something like that.

 

I don't want to start the next mystery riddle but I must come back to the red shield/black bear you designated as Missouri NG HQ. I depict the PK catalog page with both patches to compare. I would date this catalog from the early postwar years. NO other NG HQ patch is shown in this catalog.

Could it also be a "State Guard patch draft" that "morphed" to the NG HQ design later on or was it really a copy of a WW I Arty unit...??? Somebody will know, lol.

[kfields]

I do have a period studio photograph of an ID'd WWI era soldier from the 353rd regiment with the sunflower design situated between the legs of the "W" on the patch located on his left shoulder. This photo doesn't prove or disprove anything but it does show what an original looks like on the uniform. I'd show that photo here right now and in fact I know exactly where it is but it would force me to turn the light on in the bedroom, fumble around and wake the wife and I certainly am not up to the drama that would cause tonight!

However I also have a copy of the 353rd's WWI regimental history and there is a nice sunflower prominently displayed on the front cover. That doesn't prove or disprove anything either but I am posting it here merely to show an interesting and appealing design.

Kim

[Proud Kraut]

... is but it would force me to turn the light on in the bedroom, fumble around and wake the wife and I certainly am not up to the drama that would cause tonight!

 

:lol: Things are all the same, everywhere in the world!

 

That's a great front cover!!!

[Curly]

It's my understanding that this patch was sold by Patch King/Hobby Guild for collectors. In one of their catalogs I found this patch designated as “89th Division (World War I)”. Regarding to how many patches were drawn upside down, I think they were not too carefully with these patch designations.

 

Anyway, in William and Kurt Keller”s book (US Army Shoulder Patches...) I only found the “Rolling W” design for the 89th Div, even in WW I. One of those “Midwest Division” patches has a small sunflower sewn on. It's IDed as 353rd InfRgt that fought with the Division in WW I and WW II (unfortunately I only have a poor copy of one of these patches).

I learned that the sunflower is the symbol for Kansas where the 353rd was stationed. Would make sense so far.

 

Believing that Patch King etc. sold machine embroidered “reproductions” of WW I handmade patches, I would like to know the following:

 

1.Was the sunflower patch worn by elements of the Division in WW I or after the war (looks like my patch was sewn on, don't know if on an uniform or an blanket)?

2.If so, was the patch worn by the 353rd InfRgt?

3.If not, why did Patch King “use” this patch design?

 

I'm sure an ASMIC article about this patch will exist but I couldn't t find anything in my Trading Post issues.

Thank you one more time for your help and your patience!

 

 

Hello, I'm a brand new member, who happened onto your "sunflower patch" discussion during my search for information on a sunflower patch I have -- it appears to be a home-made patch, which is among the WWI items belonging to my grandfather, Harold S. Sutton, who served in the Machine Gun Company of the 353rd "All Kansas" Infantry of the 89th Division. In case it is helpful to your discussion of the origin of the Patch King's sunflower patch, I am including a photo of my grandfather's sunflower patch below. Unfortunately I do not have a photo of him wearing it, but I do have one of him with the 89th "Rolling W" on his sleeve, with a white center.

 

Am headed to Antiques Roadshow here in Atlanta next weekend, with my collection of my grandfather's letters from the trenches, and miscellaneous other items such as a boarding pass for the troop ship HMS Caronia, a German belt buckle he mentions in a letter, his paybook, a booklet of the 353rd's history, and other stuff. One of the letters, written a few days after Armistice Day, is written on the back side of German topographic map paper. We'll see what they say! Thanks for all your informative posts already -- this site is terrific - I'm hooked!!

 

 

 

[Bob Hudson]

Am headed to Antiques Roadshow here in Atlanta next weekend, with my collection of my grandfather's letters....

 

Thanks for sharing those photos. One of our forum members is a militaria appraiser for the Roadshow so maybe he'll be the one to look at your stuff when you get to the right table.

[Curly]

Thanks for sharing those photos. One of our forum members is a militaria appraiser for the Roadshow so maybe he'll be the one to look at your stuff when you get to the right table.

 

Thanks, Administrator, I will be sure to ask the appraiser if he/she is "one of us"!

[Allan H.]

Thanks for posting the Sunflower patch and the information concerning your grandfather. I am always interested in reading about those Kansas units! Your sunflower patch is interesting to me. It appears to be sewn onto a piece of whipcord rather than standard wool. Both the American Legion and the VFW posts in Kansas would adorn their caps with the sunflower. perhaps this is one of those adornments? Of course, it is possible that it is a WWI vintage patch. It will be interesting to see if your renewal of this old post garners any more discussion.

 

Welcome to the forum!

Allan

[Patchcollector]

Allan and Patch Johnson, thank you very much for your statements and the bulk of background informations!

For the younger collectors I would like to add a picture of the patches you mentioned in your posts. Left and Center: Kansas National Guard HQ, Right: The "bear on red shield" patch, that was designated by PK as "Separate Arty Brigade".

 

Thanks again!

 

Lars

 

 

 

I was just going through my patches,found this,and remembered this "Sunflower" thread.

 

I bought this some time back,and this is what the seller had written about it:

 

US 69th infantry Brigade seperate 1st or old pattern patch. Used but not abused. Still very clean. I believe this unit was activated in 1962 and some soldiers would deploy to Vietnam and or use for against civil unrest in the USA

 

He described it as a "rare old version".I don't think it is rare,but I liked the design!

[Teamski]

I was just going through my patches,found this,and remembered this "Sunflower" thread.

 

I bought this some time back,and this is what the seller had written about it:

 

US 69th infantry Brigade seperate 1st or old pattern patch. Used but not abused. Still very clean. I believe this unit was activated in 1962 and some soldiers would deploy to Vietnam and or use for against civil unrest in the USA

 

He described it as a "rare old version".I don't think it is rare,but I liked the design!

 

The patch is the Kansas National Guard HQ patch (later STARC). It still being worn. The patch was worn from 1951 onwards.

 

-Ski

[Patchcollector]

Yeah I went online and found the 69th infantry Brigade separate patch.Here is a pic of it.In my prior post I

stated that the description came from the guy who sold it to me.

[coolcav20]

Yea, it looks like a 9th Infantry variation. Maybe WWII or Vietnam. Very nice :thumbsup:

 

-Nick

[hawkdriver]

I was just going through my patches,found this,and remembered this "Sunflower" thread.

 

I bought this some time back,and this is what the seller had written about it:

 

US 69th infantry Brigade seperate 1st or old pattern patch. Used but not abused. Still very clean. I believe this unit was activated in 1962 and some soldiers would deploy to Vietnam and or use for against civil unrest in the USA

 

He described it as a "rare old version".I don't think it is rare,but I liked the design!

 

Here, let me clear this up a little. The sunflower patch shown earlier with the end of the petals that are curved is the first STARC patch. That patch hasn't been worn since the early to mid 70's. The one you show is the current STARC patch that we wear. The version you have posted is neither rare or very collectable. I have an entire stack of them in plastic. The curved petal ones are the ones that are getting hard to come by.

 

By the way, we lovingly refer to this patch as the "flaming sweethearthole"

[hawkdriver]

Ha ha! sweathearthole! Funny how the word checker will change things. it should read "flaming A-hole"

[Patchcollector]

Here, let me clear this up a little. The sunflower patch shown earlier with the end of the petals that are curved is the first STARC patch. That patch hasn't been worn since the early to mid 70's. The one you show is the current STARC patch that we wear. The version you have posted is neither rare or very collectable. I have an entire stack of them in plastic. The curved petal ones are the ones that are getting hard to come by.

 

By the way, we lovingly refer to this patch as the "flaming sweethearthole"

 

 

I did'nt say it was rare.The guy who sold it to me did.I paid a couple of bucks for it.

[July1, 1916-HLI17SB]

I saw this post quite some time ago but had nothing to add. I am a collector of 353rd items and rec'd this photo not too long ago. It was taken in 1919 outside of a dance hall in Germany. As I looked closely at it, I remembered this post and I think it answers the question. If you look at the hat of the soldier holding the lady's hand, you will see that he is wearing the sunflower patch on his hat...and it appears to be just like the one from Curly's Grandfather Harold S. Sutton.

[468abnarm]

For some reason,I have it in the back of my mind (at least what's left of it) that the red shield with the bear on it is related to the 129th Field Artillery Regt.

The former unit of President Harry S Truman during WW I. Anyone one else got anything on that?