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Unknown shovel


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#26 hotlead

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 04:51 PM

How much "war aid" were we doing in 1945? It seems to me that by that time the Germans couldn't run fast enough, certainly from the Russians, and that the need wouldn't be as great as say, 1940-43.

#27 boyt44

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 05:45 PM

How much "war aid" were we doing in 1945? It seems to me that by that time the Germans couldn't run fast enough, certainly from the Russians, and that the need wouldn't be as great as say, 1940-43.


You have to remember that we were pressing the Russians to enter the war against Japan. we were stockpiling tons of equipment and gear for what would have been a long and costly campaign.

#28 jgawne

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 06:59 AM

We were sending the Russians oodles of war aid right up until the last minute. And then the spigot was shut off, leaving a number of items (and parts) sitting in the US. It used to be the only way you could find a Russian lend lease item in the states was if it was from such a batch, but now some of it has tricked back. The best thing to do is to try and get a photo of the shovel to some Russian diggers and collectors and see if they have ever seen one.  If they have found one in Russia, then I would say you can be well over 90% sure that's what it was.



#29 oldabewla

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 09:28 AM

I'm not 100%  but I think I saw in a original WWII photo few years back of a Marine on the landing craft at Iwo Jima and he had one of these shovels on his back pack with the cover on it.

 

Craig



#30 Steve1987

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:40 AM

I'm not 100%  but I think I saw in a original WWII photo few years back of a Marine on the landing craft at Iwo Jima and he had one of these shovels on his back pack with the cover on it.

 

Craig

 

Hi Craig,

 

I have never seen this shovel in use with U.S. Marines at any point. 

 

This is the second type of shovel the dealers like to call "USMC" in order to make a $10 shovel into a $200 shovel for those who are willing to fall for it. 

 

I don't know of any reason USMC collectors would buy these.  If someone finds a photo, maybe I will re-consider :)

 

Regards,

-Steve



#31 oldabewla

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 02:02 PM

Hi Steve,

 

I just thought I saw one in a photo a very long time ago?  but I'm not 100% sure as first stated, if it was the one?  or a folding shovel with a modified handle on it which was strait and not larger at the end of the handle.

 

I'm like rest here the M1943 folding shovel is far better than this is.

 

 

 

Craig



#32 pararaftanr2

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 05:25 PM

All,

I don't have a high-res version of this Joe Rosenthal photo from Iwo Jima, but I always thought there may be a chance the Marine on the right, pulling the cart, could possible have one?

Regards, Paul

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  • Untitledshovel.jpg
  • Untitledshovel1.jpg


#33 oldabewla

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 06:00 PM

The smoking gun photo! carried in a t-handle shovel cover which a folding shovel will not fit correct and can not be strapped into the cover.

 

Craig



#34 pararaftanr2

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 08:11 PM

This is the largest I can make the image before it begins to break up:

 

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#35 RustyCanteen

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 08:23 PM

I don't know guys, I'm thinking that could be an M1910 minus the 'T' dowl. Note that the other man has an M1910 too. And I think I *may* see the steel extension where the handle is riveted to the blade, (like an M1910) just below the securing strap on the cover. The 'mystery' shovel lacks any extension since the handle fits into the blade.  The handle diameter also looks about right for an M1910 too.

 

I will say that it is plausible, but many theories are. We shouldn't rush to assume that we are seeing the mystery shovel and should be wary of falling victim of bias confirmation. Still, it is a good photo, but it isn't solid proof one way or the other. What we do know, is that M1910s existed during the time-frame the photo was taken.

 

RC



#36 phantomfixer

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 06:12 AM

Any new info on the EMP C 1945 dated fixed E tools?

 

 one popped up at an auction over the weekend, and the shovel stumped me, and with the help of this thread, was able to make a go/no go decision for bidding...

 

I am on the side of war residual, civilian market.

Military equipment generally changes for the better, an improvement...going to a fixed handle shovel is a step backward. If I recall, late war, AMES was working on a pic combo tool that lead to the M51 Etool. 

 

Just a theory but,  EMP C. was given a contract for late war (since only 1945 dated examples have surfaced) based on the invasion of Japan being imminent....then canceled with the abrupt end to the war, this could have been a way to recoup their investment ....

Bottom line, I passed based on condition and this thread...

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#37 Bodes

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:35 AM

Just a quick thought...Perhaps these were implemented for first wave landing troops?....Having an unfolding shovel could expedite the "digging in" process....No loosening/ tightening of a blade nut....Bodes

#38 phantomfixer

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 12:21 PM

valid point Bodes...and it could very well have been designed as such...anyone that has been to the beach with one of these shovels knows the frustration of getting sand in the knuckle....let alone being under fire 

 

I come back to why don't we see these in more numbers by other contractors if it is an invasion shovel gearing up for Japan...Logistically, there would have been more manufactures amping up fixed shovel production for the big push...Just thoughts...

 

there are those here on the forum that are good at researching contracts...would be interesting to find out more on EMP C  and their contract data 


Edited by phantomfixer, 02 July 2018 - 12:28 PM.


#39 doyler

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 12:52 PM

If an invasion-first wave shovel why doesnt others in the photo have them?Also there is a plain T-Handle on the ammo cart.

 

Thought the same on the contract...

I would be curious to see the contract for the company if its avaiable.Possibly that would show if the contract was completed or how many were delivered or if cnacelled beffore the items were delivered.



#40 Bodes

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 04:48 PM

If an invasion-first wave shovel why doesnt others in the photo have them?Also there is a plain T-Handle on the ammo cart.
 
Thought the same on the contract...
I would be curious to see the contract for the company if its avaiable.Possibly that would show if the contract was completed or how many were delivered or if cnacelled beffore the items were delivered.


How many would have been available and distributed?....Same argument could go along with that of the M4 bayonet and carbine bayonet lug....

Getting back to the leftover surplus of shovel blades and handles....Curious as to why there wasn't a surplus of the folding adapters as well?....If the adapters were available, there wouldn't have been the need for making dies for the stamped metal pieces.....Bodes

#41 phantomfixer

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:02 AM

I passed on the shovel at auction, but it showed up at the local flea market...for a buck what the heck..and this one does not have the two holes along the spline for the bracket, just one smaller hole and the two side holes...

 

glad it showed up at the flea market

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  • etool2.jpg


#42 phantomfixer

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:58 AM

googling EMPco  came up with a lot of steam engines, stoves etc. Located in Two Rivers Wisconsin...more research found Metal Ware Corporation in Two Rivers Wisconsin, manufacturing the same products, toys, steam engines, electric stoves Etc...it is a leap of faith the say EMPCo is the same company as Metal Ware, Two Rivers Wisconsin

Wiki had this to say about Metal Ware located near Two Rivers Wisconsin..

"1941-1945
In April 1942, The Metal Ware Corporation announced that it would have contracts for arms production.[14]

By December 1944, essential consumer goods were in short supply and the War Production Board authorized The Metal Ware Corp to resume production of electrical appliances as materials and labor became available.[15]

In April 1945, because of continued war production, the company began construction of a 2500 s.f. addition to their plant.[16]

 

For national security reasons, plant production was often not made public until after the war was over. In 1946, it was reported that The Metal Ware Corporation had been producing electric lanterns for soldiers and electrical appliances for naval ships."

 

A start for someone that wants to research wartime contracts for E tools


Edited by phantomfixer, 03 July 2018 - 08:00 AM.


#43 phantomfixer

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:29 AM

EMPco and Metal Ware the same company?

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#44 Bodes

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 10:31 AM

EMPco and Metal Ware the same company?


Is this a rhetorical question?.....Bodes

#45 phantomfixer

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:25 AM

No not really...Thinking EMPCO is a division of Metal Ware Corporation...for research, wondering if E Tool contract was given to EMPCO or the parent company Metal Ware, and more important, is EMPCO the same as E.M.P. Co



#46 Bodes

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 03:00 PM

No not really...Thinking EMPCO is a division of Metal Ware Corporation...for research, wondering if E Tool contract was given to EMPCO or the parent company Metal Ware, and more important, is EMPCO the same as E.M.P. Co

 

Hope you can figure out something....I've got one of the shovels in question, but have eighteen times your investment into mine....Would be nice to know the story behind them, Bodes



#47 mikie

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 08:40 AM

Wish you folks would figure this out. In the mean time I've been using mine for garden and yard work. Junk or gem, it digs a good hole.
Mikie

#48 phantomfixer

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 04:22 AM

dig it...no pun...unless someone can pull up the wartime contract info, that states..."Shovel, combat, assault, non folding" or something similar...I am on the side of these being post wartime contract, factory assembled pieces



#49 warbird15

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 03:47 PM

Here's my example. Couldn't find any markings, they're probably under the paint. 

 

Note this one differs from the others on the thread because the shovel head only has two rivets that attach to the wood handle. 

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  • TDQS9176.JPG


#50 Bodes

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 04:44 PM

Any indication of holes in the blade being filled in by weld material?....The bracket that traps the handle appears the same, only it's lacking the ears (where the extra holes would be)....Interesting variation, Bodes


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