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Medic Jump Wings


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#1 fabiobelgio

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 12:13 PM

What about this medic jump wings ? Marked in the back sterling and probably with the NS Meyer shield...am I wrong ?
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4527/medice.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4586/medicback.jpg

#2 Paul C.

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 12:26 PM

Looks to be a cast reproduction to me, sorry http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif

#3 fabiobelgio

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 12:28 PM

Looks to be a cast reproduction to me, sorry http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif

What does it means "cast" ?

#4 John Cooper

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 03:55 PM

What does it means "cast" ?



Hi I will try to shed some light on this for you. Basically in this case casting is a method to reproduce the item in question i.e. the jump wings. The following link should provide you enough information one one method of casting. I hope this helps.

John

Lost Wax casting

#5 none

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 04:24 PM

I know its cast, I cast it. Always look at the edge of a wing / badge. The mold line will not be 100% straight while it die struck it will be. Also you can go to www.1903.com and see all the items I make as a guide.

Joe

#6 Teamski

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 04:37 PM

I know its cast, I cast it. Always look at the edge of a wing / badge. The mold line will not be 100% straight while it die struck it will be. Also you can go to www.1903.com and see all the items I make as a guide.

Joe


I don't mean to be a jerk, but can I ask why the word "copy" wasn't stamped into the reverse on your badges? They are set to lose a lot of money belonging to unsuspecting collectors.

-Ski

Edited by Teamski, 03 May 2009 - 04:38 PM.


#7 KurtA

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 04:50 PM

I don't mean to be a jerk, but can I ask why the word "copy" wasn't stamped into the reverse on your badges? They are set to lose a lot of money belonging to unsuspecting collectors.

-Ski

Totally agree. This example and many others.
Kurt

#8 DMD

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 05:35 PM

Is it legal to reproduce an item and use a trademark of a company that originally made the piece? I know Meyer is out of business, but is it OK to put the Meyer shield on the back?

Edited by DMD, 03 May 2009 - 05:37 PM.


#9 none

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 04:54 AM

Duncan told me never to stamp copy or reproduction on any item. He said that way the dealers would remove the word and have proof it was real.

As for names - if the trademark is no longer registered, it is not illegal to use.

#10 Teamski

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 05:05 AM

Duncan told me never to stamp copy or reproduction on any item. He said that way the dealers would remove the word and have proof it was real.

As for names - if the trademark is no longer registered, it is not illegal to use.


I hate to say that whoever Duncan is, wanted to leave the door open to decieve collectors. Wouldn't you think that any marking removed from a badge would tip off somebody that something doesn't look right? I don't go with this argument. At the very least, you could of stamped the badges upside down, which would help the collecting community ID them as fakes. I appreciate you responding, though. I wish better judgement was used in creating copies like these on the open market, especially with the likes of E-Bay bandits abound.

-Ski

#11 AK101

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 07:08 AM

He said that way the dealers would remove the word and have proof it was real.


Err....well...... then maybe we might have been able to spot where the VERY HELPFUL "COPY" markings had been removed.

Very sad

#12 Bugme

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 09:29 AM

I hate to say that whoever Duncan is, wanted to leave the door open to decieve collectors. Wouldn't you think that any marking removed from a badge would tip off somebody that something doesn't look right? I don't go with this argument. At the very least, you could of stamped the badges upside down, which would help the collecting community ID them as fakes. I appreciate you responding, though. I wish better judgement was used in creating copies like these on the open market, especially with the likes of E-Bay bandits abound.

-Ski

I would assume that he is referring to Duncan Campbell, a WWII veteran and pioneer in the area of wings collecting. However, he passed away in late 2007 so, we have no way to ask him why he would have made such a strange statement. Again, that's assuming that he even made that statement. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/ermm.gif

On another note, I think that it's very easy to tell if a set of wings in cast like this. I'm not even a wings collector and I can tell. As long as historical items are sought after, reproductions will be out there. So, Caveat Emptor... let the buyer beware.

#13 bobgee

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 09:32 AM

Err....well...... then maybe we might have been able to spot where the VERY HELPFUL "COPY" markings had been removed.

Very sad


I absolutely agree. Any 'reproduced' item. i.e. not made by the original manufacturer should be marked 'copy' Many of these items now sold as unmarked reproductions will become 'genuine' items in the future. Very sad.
Bobgee

#14 doyler

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 09:34 AM

These as well as the WW1 pilots wings have been avaiable at the SOS for several years.A friend here in Iowa has several sets of the various wings in his shop as reproductions but has said many have been sold by others as originals.

RD

#15 bobgee

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 09:37 AM

Err....well...... then maybe we might have been able to spot where the VERY HELPFUL "COPY" markings had been removed.

Very sad


I absolutely agree. Any 'reproduced' item. i.e. not made by the original manufacturer should be marked 'copy' Many of these items now sold as unmarked reproductions will become 'genuine' items in the future. Very sad.
Bobgee

#16 Abby K-9

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 10:04 AM

Duncan told me never to stamp copy or reproduction on any item.


If you're making reproductions, copies, fakes, they need to be marked as such, especially if they are exact copies of the original item and likely to deceive collectors as they are passed on from one to another and age.

Edited by John Cooper, 04 May 2009 - 12:51 PM.


#17 FW12

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 10:18 AM

A. It's not his responsibility to stamp "Copy" or "Reproduction" on his items. I disagree with his use a hallmark, and yes, I would like some sort of identifier that is reproduction, but ultimately he is free to do what he wants; that's capitalism, folks!

B. It is my responsibility as the consumer to know what I'm doing, and if I get burned on an item like this, that's my fault. Always know your stuff before you go out and buy. Anyone who's looked at two or three WWII wings should be able to tell that this piece is a reproduction. Know your stuff.

My two cents, for what their worth,

Beau

Edited by Beau Wright, 04 May 2009 - 10:19 AM.


#18 shrapneldude

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 10:51 AM

A. It's not his responsibility to stamp "Copy" or "Reproduction" on his items. I disagree with his use a hallmark, and yes, I would like some sort of identifier that is reproduction, but ultimately he is free to do what he wants; that's capitalism, folks!

B. It is my responsibility as the consumer to know what I'm doing, and if I get burned on an item like this, that's my fault. Always know your stuff before you go out and buy. Anyone who's looked at two or three WWII wings should be able to tell that this piece is a reproduction. Know your stuff.

My two cents, for what their worth,

Beau



Agreed 100% with that. He's man enough to come on here and admit that the work is his, and he doesn't make any false statements that they're original, real, authentic, etc -- he makes reproduction items for collectors, and presumably reenactors who don't want to spend the hundreds of dollars on the real thing. I see nothing wrong with it -- it would help if they were marked, but just like the easy-green helmets and all the other "notorious" sellers of reproduction items, he's found a niche and sold items that people want. It's not his job once they're sold to police them and make sure fools don't spend large amounts of money without doing their homework because some crooked scumbag is looking to make a buck. I find it in poor taste for people to jump his case like I'm seeing here.

Edited by shrapneldude, 04 May 2009 - 10:55 AM.


#19 John Cooper

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 12:56 PM

All I undestand this can be an emotional topic and can understand both sides here. I think expressing you position on this is vaild... all I ask is that you keep the tone civil.

As an FYI - A Dallas wing recently up on Ebay made by Joe and being sold as REAL had its discription changed because as I undestand it Joe contacted the seller and informed him it was one he made. my source form this information was the seller.

John

#20 Pathfinder82

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 01:00 PM

A. It's not his responsibility to stamp "Copy" or "Reproduction" on his items. I disagree with his use a hallmark, and yes, I would like some sort of identifier that is reproduction, but ultimately he is free to do what he wants; that's capitalism, folks!

B. It is my responsibility as the consumer to know what I'm doing, and if I get burned on an item like this, that's my fault. Always know your stuff before you go out and buy. Anyone who's looked at two or three WWII wings should be able to tell that this piece is a reproduction. Know your stuff.

My two cents, for what their worth,

Beau



While I agree mostly with what you said Beau, if one is a seller of certain items, let's say militaria, they can sometimes be viewed as an "expert" in their field and could be held liable for selling a fake item as real. I agree that a person should know and have an understanding about items that they wish to collect, but the seller is and should be responsible for doing the right thing as well.

I believe there have been a few cases where big time collector/dealers have been prosecuted for misrepresenting items as less than they actually were then they purchased those items for pennies on the dollar.

The fact is, it isn't right to sell items as real, knowing full well that they are not. (I am not saying that the person who made these is doing this) although they are making it easier for the scumbags to resell them as real.

#21 KurtA

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 03:57 PM

Ok, forget for a minute about stamping the word "reproduction" on the back of these fakes. How about just not putting the original maker's hallmark on them? Check out all the WW1 wings on the seller's site. All kinds of maker hallmarks are being used.

Aside from the debates of what's right/what's wrong, what's legal/what's illegal, the bottom line is; deceptive, unmarked reproductions, such as these wings have a net negative effect on our hobby of militaria collecting.

The future of the militaria collecting is often discussed on the various forums - How many new collectors come along that get screwed on repro stuff and just walk away in disgust? It doesn't matter that these wings are initially being clearly identified as reproductions. One or two sellers later, they're probably often misrepresented as something else.

Kurt

#22 AK101

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 04:31 PM

being sold as REAL had its discription changed because as I understand it Joe contacted the seller and informed him it was one he made.


Well, I must give credit where it is due. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#23 brian e

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 08:22 PM

All I undestand this can be an emotional topic and can understand both sides here. I think expressing you position on this is vaild... all I ask is that you keep the tone civil.

As an FYI - A Dallas wing recently up on Ebay made by Joe and being sold as REAL had its discription changed because as I undestand it Joe contacted the seller and informed him it was one he made. my source form this information was the seller.

John

this is fine and well that mr *************** contacted the seller on ebay and had them change their description but what about when some one sells one of his repos/fakes at a show or off of some website that mr *************** doesnt see and its sold as original is he gonna buck up when some sucker shows off his new original ww1 wing here on the forum and finds out its fake after spending big dollars for it
i understand buyer beware but if they were marked as repo/fake/copy then this wouldnt ever be an issue
i think if its a repo it should be marked as such and not marked with original looking maker marks brian

#24 Bugme

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 07:18 AM

i understand buyer beware but if they were marked as repo/fake/copy then this wouldnt ever be an issue
i think if its a repo it should be marked as such and not marked with original looking maker marks brian

In a perfect world every repro would be properly marked as such... and every puppy would never become a dog and men would understand women. To this day, that cute puppy that my wife wanted is now MY dog ^_^ , I still don't understand women http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/pinch.gif and repro's continue to be made without any distinguishing markings showing them to be repro's http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/disgust.gif . This is done despite all the numerous threads we've seen on the subject. Until it becomes illegal we are left with two choices: 1) we can complain and things remain the same -or- 2) We can learn and educate collectors on what to watch for. I know it's a sad commentary but, a fact none the less.

#25 flyingfortress

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 11:11 AM

Repros have always been a problem in the military collecting arena but with the addition of auction websites, namely eBay, repros and fantasy pieces have exploded on the scene. If there's a buck to be made you will find unscrupulous dealers on eBay, at flea markets, military shows, etc. hawking their bogus merchandise to unsuspecting collectors.

I would rather overpay for an authentic piece than buy a repro or fake at a "bargain" price! I fear the uninformed collecting community is in for a rude
awakening years down the road when they realize their collections are "worthless"!


George


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