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M7 bayonet back cut question


viking73
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Hi,

 

I have question concerning Milpar M7 bayonets. I've been wanting to add one to my M7 collection but I know that there are many "fake" (commerically produced after they went out of business and sold their tooling and overruns) Milpar M7s out there (along with the fake Milpar M5s) and my question is about spotting a real Milpar M7 as opposed to a commerically made up one.

 

Should a real, USGI issue, Milpar M7 have a 90 degree back cut or run out? I think just about all the ones I've seen have the long sloped or curved runout that Frank has identified in his excellent "Bayonet Points" column as being a mark of a commerical bayonet, not a real USGI issue one. For that matter, I have a Gen Cut M7 in my collection that has the curved runout. Is this because it is a post Vietnam made M7? Will Ontario M7s also have this curved runout since they too are post Vietnam made M7s?

 

I just bought an Ontario M7 & M10 scabbard new in the wrap that I haven't opened yet. I want to take some pictures of it in its original packaging before I open it. I am curious to check the back cut on it. When I open it, I can post of photos of it here if anyone wants to see them.

 

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help me clarify this troubling question!

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Since MilPar went out of business before the official change to a more rounded runout (backcut), the long sloping type of runout is almost certainly a commercial item.

 

Another problem is that at some point the slots in the tang were dropped. The early contracts all had the slots, later ones did not, but when they were officially dropped is still unknown to me.

 

I have seen some where the guard is spot welded to the blade instead of having the bent bar holding it against the ricasso. They would certainly be commercial.

 

In the photo below, based on observation more than any official sources, from left to right:

 

1. The normal early style runout found on most of the early M7s. They do not have quite as sharp a corner as was common in the M3, M4 etc.

 

2. The later official style of runout with a rounded corner. This was apparently done to stress relieve the corner, although what documentation I have found does not state the exact reason. and I have not yet found an exact date for the change. MilPar may well have used this style of runout.

 

3. Although somewhat longer and more rounded than #2, this appears on the very late production M7s and is probably within specifications since the spec simply states "Configuration of runout may vary - sharp corner not permissible." It is late enough that in the case of MilPar it should be considered commercial since it does not appear until after MilPar went out of business.

 

4. This long slope is almost certainly commercial production.

 

BACKCUT.jpg

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Frank has identified in his excellent "Bayonet Points" column

 

Bayonetman is too humble to mention it, but he is the author of the excellent "Bayonet Points" column.

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Bayonetman is too humble to mention it, but he is the author of the excellent "Bayonet Points" column.

 

 

 

Oops!! I meant Gary of course - I'm sorry about that!! crying.gif

 

Thanks for the reply Gary, that answers my question 100%. One has to be careful with the Milpar stuff. I just bought a copy of your book a few weeks ago and I really enjoy it. It's been a BIG help to my bayonet collecting habit.

 

Along the same M7 lines, how difficult is it to locate an FZR marked example? I've seen Colt M7s on Ebay over the last few weeks but no FZR ones. According to your book, 264,027 were delivered making them more numerous than say Conetta or Gen Cut but I've not seen one for sale yet where as I tracked down a nice Conetta and Gen Cut M7 fairly easily. Do FZR marked M7s command a premium over most other makers?

 

And last M7 question for the night (promise!) - I see some "Rock Island" marked M7s on Ebay lately. Are these strictly commerically made M7s or are they new USGI production bayonets? They aren't mentioned in your book so I'm wondering.

 

Thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it. Best,

 

-Derek

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sharpsshooter
Hi, Look up this book it might help. AMERICAN MILITARY BAYONETS OF THE 20TH. CENTURY A GUIDE FOR COLLECTORS, INCLUDING NOTES ON MAKERS, MARKINGS, FINISHES, VARIATIONS, SCABBARDS, AND PRODUCTION DATE BY GARY M. CUNNINGHAM ISBN # 1-888722-08-8 1997 printing PUBLISHING phone # 412-327-8246 Ontario Knife Company contracted in 1988 and 1989 for 58,100 M7 and M10 Scabbards and delivered them as an assembly. They have a code number (ASSY 8448476 MFG 2V376) The m10 replaced the M8A1 in the 1980s and cancould be used for the M4,M6,M7 I have a Milpar M7 in a M10 but I can not tell if it is a fake or GI issue. I do not know how to tell what is called a runout ? HOPE THIS CAN HELP YOU.

 

I have question concerning Milpar M7 bayonets. I've been wanting to add one to my M7 collection but I know that there are many "fake" (commerically produced after they went out of business and sold their tooling and overruns) Milpar M7s out there (along with the fake Milpar M5s) and my question is about spotting a real Milpar M7 as opposed to a commerically made up one.

 

Should a real, USGI issue, Milpar M7 have a 90 degree back cut or run out? I think just about all the ones I've seen have the long sloped or curved runout that Frank has identified in his excellent "Bayonet Points" column as being a mark of a commerical bayonet, not a real USGI issue one. For that matter, I have a Gen Cut M7 in my collection that has the curved runout. Is this because it is a post Vietnam made M7? Will Ontario M7s also have this curved runout since they too are post Vietnam made M7s?

 

I just bought an Ontario M7 & M10 scabbard new in the wrap that I haven't opened yet. I want to take some pictures of it in its original packaging before I open it. I am curious to check the back cut on it. When I open it, I can post of photos of it here if anyone wants to see them.

 

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help me clarify this troubling question!

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Hi, Look up this book it might help. AMERICAN MILITARY BAYONETS OF THE 20TH. CENTURY A GUIDE FOR COLLECTORS, INCLUDING NOTES ON MAKERS, MARKINGS, FINISHES, VARIATIONS, SCABBARDS, AND PRODUCTION DATE BY GARY M. CUNNINGHAM ISBN # 1-888722-08-8 1997 printing PUBLISHING phone # 412-327-8246 Ontario Knife Company contracted in 1988 and 1989 for 58,100 M7 and M10 Scabbards and delivered them as an assembly. They have a code number (ASSY 8448476 MFG 2V376) The m10 replaced the M8A1 in the 1980s and cancould be used for the M4,M6,M7 I have a Milpar M7 in a M10 but I can not tell if it is a fake or GI issue. I do not know how to tell what is called a runout ? HOPE THIS CAN HELP YOU.

 

Sharpsshhoter,

 

As mentioned above, Bayonetman is Gary M. Cunningham and viking 73 said that he got Gary's book a few weeks ago. Look at Gary's pictures, above. A runout, also known as a backcut, is the part of the edge next to the ricasso. As Gary says, if your Milpar M7 has a long, sloping backcut it's not GI.

 

Hope this helps.

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sharpsshooter
Sharpsshhoter,

 

As mentioned above, Bayonetman is Gary M. Cunningham and viking 73 said that he got Gary's book a few weeks ago. Look at Gary's pictures, above. A runout, also known as a backcut, is the part of the edge next to the ricasso. As Gary says, if your Milpar M7 has a long, sloping backcut it's not GI.

 

Hope this helps.

No disrespect, it is a great book. I will take my m7/m10 from my case and check it out THANKS

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Along the same M7 lines, how difficult is it to locate an FZR marked example? I've seen Colt M7s on Ebay over the last few weeks but no FZR ones. According to your book, 264,027 were delivered making them more numerous than say Conetta or Gen Cut but I've not seen one for sale yet where as I tracked down a nice Conetta and Gen Cut M7 fairly easily. Do FZR marked M7s command a premium over most other makers?

 

And last M7 question for the night (promise!) - I see some "Rock Island" marked M7s on Ebay lately. Are these strictly commerically made M7s or are they new USGI production bayonets? They aren't mentioned in your book so I'm wondering.

 

-Derek

 

FZR is quite difficult to find. This one is still very much a mystery, at least to me. In my book, I state that even the name and location are not certain and were taken from Cole's book. I still do not have any real proof that Frazier is the correct name, and certainly nothing that shows a location. My book SPECULATED that FZR was possibly Dynetics Corp but that has since been identified as being incorrect, so I now have nothing to show not only who FZR is but how many were made and when. They are quite well made, and have every appearance of being US contract, and if anyone has any firm information, I would certainly appreciate seeing it.

 

I don't follow eBay much anymore and haven't seen the Rock Island M7. The next time you see one, let me know the link and I will check it out. I have no information that would indicate manufacture at RIA and would GUESS it is commercial, but would like to see an ad first.

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  • 2 weeks later...
FZR is quite difficult to find. This one is still very much a mystery, at least to me. In my book, I state that even the name and location are not certain and were taken from Cole's book. I still do not have any real proof that Frazier is the correct name, and certainly nothing that shows a location. My book SPECULATED that FZR was possibly Dynetics Corp but that has since been identified as being incorrect, so I now have nothing to show not only who FZR is but how many were made and when. They are quite well made, and have every appearance of being US contract, and if anyone has any firm information, I would certainly appreciate seeing it.

 

I don't follow eBay much anymore and haven't seen the Rock Island M7. The next time you see one, let me know the link and I will check it out. I have no information that would indicate manufacture at RIA and would GUESS it is commercial, but would like to see an ad first.

 

 

 

Thanks for the info. Gary. Still no luck on finding an FZR marked specimen (yet) but I did manage to find a well used Milpar marked specimen with what looks like runout #2. I need to post a photo if it so you can tell me what you think.

 

I found several of the "Rock Island" M7s on Ebay tonight. Here's the link to one of them:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rock-Island-Arsenal-M7...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

They don't show a photo of the handguard markings so it's not much help. I should request a photo so I can see what it looks like...

 

-Derek

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  • 2 weeks later...

Gary,

 

Here is a close-up shot of the Milpar M7 I now have in my collection:

 

MIlPAR_backcut.jpg

 

It appears to match the second type backcut you listed.

 

-Derek

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  • 1 month later...
  • 6 years later...

Since this thread is back up right now, I would like to correct some of my previous statements based on information that has came to my attention since my first book came out.

 

MilPar had late production of the M5 bayonet and possibly also for the M7 that did use the long slope/curved backcut/runout. The M5A1 bayonets were made for other countries on Military Assistance contracts, not for the US military. Some of these came in with the batch of bayonets the CMP brought in from Greece. It looks like they may also have had Military Assistance contracts for the M7 although I have yet to find proof of that - so it could be that the long runout M7 bayonets were made through a military program for some other nation, not necessarily for commercial sales.

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I have a question on the "rareness" of the FRZ M7 bayonets.

Here is a quote from the mentioned Ebay auction:

"I believe this one to be from 1966 order of 129,535 - Total production of the FZR 66, 69 and 71 was 264,027"

From Bill Humes web site on the M7 he says that Conetta produced 130,000 before they went out of business in the late 1960s.

He also doesn't say for sure who FRZ was.

It isn't that hard to find a Conetta marked M7, but rare to find a FRZ. I wonder where the person selling the FRZ on Ebay got his information.

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WOW! 264,027 FZRs, and can never seem to find one. Been looking for years, can't count how many boxes of M7s I've looked through over the years. I don't particularly want to spend a fortune on an M7, when all the others I have were pretty cheap. Some day I'll come across one at some yard sale, or flea market. LOL! Gotta be patient!

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From my new book, which is correct to the best of my current knowledge:

 

Fraser Manufacturing Corporation (FZR), Lexington, Michigan: Fraser had one contract, DAAF01-72-C-0188 dated October 1971 with an added order on in September 1972 for a total of $99,000 which would be about 40,000 bayonets. Fraser is still in business and manufactures a wide range of products for the US military.

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It is quite possible that the bulk of this order went to another country. Although 40,000 is not a large number compared to the over 1,000,000 supplied by BOC, they still seem to be scarcer than would be expected. I know of a few that came from US military surplus sales so at least some got into the regular supply system.

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The FZR went for $204.50.

It was $77. up to the last hour; then in the last 3 seconds it went from $107 to 204.50.

I'm glad it went for a good price.

Marv

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It's been brought up before, but one other interesting observation with the FZR's, when you do see one almost too a blade they are in far better than average condition of other similar M7's.

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  • 3 months later...

Hi all at the Militaria Forum from down under, this is my first visit so I hope all goes well.

I have a small collection of M7's and I have been reading your forum material and gaining lots of good information through it. I also purchased a copy of Gary Cunningham's book which has been very helpful. I have an example of most of the more common M7;s but no FZR or Gen Cut. My question today on my first visit is about the back cut on the Gen Cut M7 which I believe was produced in and after 1985, does the Gen Cut only have the curved back cut on the blade, as I believe that I have seen pictures showing otherwise.

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Do you have Gary's new book or the older blue book? The new book "U.S. Knife Bayonets and Scabbards" has the answer on the bottom of page 118. In July of 1974, the sharp, near 90 degree runout was no longer permitted. So, GEN CUT M7s will usually have the curved runout. However, I too have seen the 90 degree cut back on GEN CUT M7s. It probably took a while for all the manufacturers to change over to the curved runout. Look at Bill Humes' site. http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/humes_m7_04.htm Welcome to the forum.

Marv

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