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Doolittle-MOH-mini bar


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#1 4STARCHRIS

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 06:21 PM

Doolittle_44_minis.jpg

This is an original set of LTG Doolittle's mini bar. All medals are original and well documented and in my possession.
Thanks and enjoy.
4starchris

#2 Jim Baker

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 08:06 PM

Impressive!!

Thanks for sharing this. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#3 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 08:26 PM

I find it interesting that the manufacturer of the medals took the time to put enamel in the DSM , but did not put enamel in the MOH .

Kurt

#4 Allan H.

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 09:10 AM

Kurt,
I too have to wonder about that MOH mini as it is not like anything I have encountered. I wonder how many of us would quickly dismiss a rack like this as fake if it were offered to us at a show. After all, the minis are rather poorly mounted on modern ribbon bar racks with the rounded ends of the racks showing! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/w00t.gif Also, all of the medal ribbons show age and wear except for the MOH and WWI Victory ribbons. This leads me to believe that somebody has played with the bars.
What I think has happened here is that somebody took Doolittle's original minis, which probably would not have included the MOH as he would have been wearing the full-sized medal around his neck, and remounted them to take the added medal.
I am also surprised that with all of the foreign decorations that Doolittle would have accrued by the end of WWII, that there wasn't at least one more bar to hold those minis.
Allan

#5 4STARCHRIS

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 01:36 PM

As I mentioned. All the medals are original to LTG Doolittle. All the medals are well documented. I have the paperwork in my possession that came with the medals. However, thank you for your opinion. Everyboby has one.
4starchris

#6 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 01:55 PM

As I mentioned. All the medals are original to LTG Doolittle. All the medals are well documented. I have the paperwork in my possession that came with the medals. However, thank you for your opinion. Everyboby has one.
4starchris



I don't think Allan was indicating he thought they were fake, but was surprised at the method Doolottle used to have the medals mounted. They certainly were not done professionally. I have held a number of high ranking officers sets of miniatures in my hands and they normally look very " spit and polish " .

I am sure Doolittle had many, many sets of minis made up during his career. These appear to be a very late set from the 70's or 80's. Who knows how many he gave away on request.

Thanks for posting them. I enjoyed seeing the set.


Kurt

Edited by KASTAUFFER, 02 April 2007 - 01:56 PM.


#7 Gil Sanow

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 04:37 PM

I don't think Allan was indicating he thought they were fake, but was surprised at the method Doolottle used to have the medals mounted. They certainly were not done professionally. I have held a number of high ranking officers sets of miniatures in my hands and they normally look very " spit and polish " .

I am sure Doolittle had many, many sets of minis made up during his career. These appear to be a very late set from the 70's or 80's. Who knows how many he gave away on request.

Thanks for posting them. I enjoyed seeing the set.
Kurt


Some years ago -- perhaps 20 or more -- when repro MOH's were available, one could buy minies. The came the crackdown, and they disappeared. I am not sure I ever saw an authorization for them, though other minies were certainly OK. Given the condition of this MOH, it would appear that Doolittle actually wore it this way. Who would tell a famos hero and LTG he was wrong?

Does anyone have photos of him wearing it this way? That would cinch it.

#8 4STARCHRIS

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 04:43 PM

Doolittle_mini_073.jpg

The medals actually date back to probably 60's. They were taken to be completely remounted and the order fixed. The medals and ribbons are as they came from the general. A completely new set was issued back to the general. Third row was all foriegn decorations and were given back to the general. These were exremely hard to replace even back then.
Thanks for looking.

#9 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 07:17 PM

The medals actually date back to probably 60's. They were taken to be completely remounted and the order fixed. The medals and ribbons are as they came from the general. A completely new set was issued back to the general. Third row was all foriegn decorations and were given back to the general. These were exremely hard to replace even back then.
Thanks for looking.


Makes sense . The position of the Bronze Star is in the wrong place . The OLC on the DSM is a different contract than the ones on the AM and DFC too.

Kurt

#10 Allan H.

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 02:45 AM

The medals actually date back to probably 60's. They were taken to be completely remounted and the order fixed. The medals and ribbons are as they came from the general. A completely new set was issued back to the general. Third row was all foriegn decorations and were given back to the general. These were exremely hard to replace even back then.
Thanks for looking.


Chris,
If you are saying that this is the mounting job that was done by Dondero, then all I can say is SHAME ON DONDERO! This is without a doubt, the poorest mounting job that I have ever seen on a set of minis. Besides the medals not being mounted in the proper order- (the order should have gone MOH, DSM, SS, DFC, BSM,AM on the top bar), they didn't get the lengths of the drapes to allow the pendants to fall to a uniform length.

Those sloppy so and so's didn't even use the same size medals! Normally, all ofthe campaign medals would be of uniform size, with pendants for the WWI and WWII Victory medals being larger than the others. In this case, you can plainly see that the pendants for the Am Def and EAME medals are significantly smaller than the size of the pendants for the Am Cam and AsPac campaigns.

I will bet that nobody is going to be able to find a photo of the good General wearing these medals. I don't think he would have been caught dead wearing such a poor representation.

I think the good general should have sued!
Allan

#11 4STARCHRIS

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 04:20 AM

Allan,
I did not say that Dondero did this. I did not say that this is the set given back to the general. Please read what I said. THIS IS THE GROUP GIVEN BY GENERAL DOOLITTLE TO BE REPLACED. It clearly says on the job order to repair and replace. I clearly stated that the general was given all new medals and these were the ones kept. Post #8.
All I can say is SHAME ON YOU GUYS who do not read what is clearly written.
Good grief. Those of you all that have so many opinions and do not take the time too get the information straight.
As far as the recent mounted bar seen on pic #1. I never said this was part of the set. The mounting bar seen in pic#1 is being used to stabilize the 47 year old mini set. It is a fragile set for its age.
As far as the order of the medals. Even General Doolittle saw this and wanted it redone in the proper order. Did he use this bar? Yes he did for numerous years before replacing it.
Sue.... please. this statement needs no reply.
Thanks for your opinion once again. As I mentioned earlier everyone has one.
4starchris

#12 Allan H.

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 05:17 AM

Chris,
This is what you said from the begining: "This is an original set of LTG Doolittle's mini bar. All medals are original and well documented and in my possession.
Thanks and enjoy."

I guess that I was inferring that these were an original set of LTG Doolittle's miniature medals. I think what we have here is the semantics game being played and if you want to accuse me of failing to read what has been written, then you have to look back on your own statements and determine whether you might not have been guilty of implying that this was LTG Doolittle's medal rack. This would have been much simpler if you would have explained that the medals were Doolittle's but that they have been reconstructed to approximate his awards. We don't get any sort of explanation until the 8th post in the thread where you say- "The medals actually date back to probably 60's. They were taken to be completely remounted and the order fixed." Obviously, the order wasn't fixed on this bar, but now that you explain that these were what were left over from the remounting, the inconsistencies begin to make sense.

I'm sorry if you got your feelings hurt over your post, but the discussion was accurate and germain to the images posted.
Allan

#13 4STARCHRIS

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 05:39 AM

Once again Allan I do not know what you are reading? THESE ARE LTG DOOLITTLE MINI MEDALS. ORIGINAL. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN MAIPULATED, PUT TOGATHER. This is the way the set came to be fixed or repaired. They were not. THESE ARE THE ORIGINAL MEDALS THAT CAME IN THE ORIGIANL ORDER THAT YOU SEE THEM.
I do not need to explain that these medals have been recontructed to approximate his. THEY WERE NOT. THESE ARE HIS ORIGINAL MEDALS.
Nothing was changed from the way the were given. they are all still sewn to each other the way THEY CAME.
I stand by what I said in post #1. LTG Doolittle ORIGINAL MINIS.
Do not imply you hurt my feelings over something so stupid. I was trying to clear up your implications not my error.

#14 Kadet

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 06:11 AM

What I think he is saying is:

-These medals were sent to Dondero to be redone
- Dondero filled the order, completely replacing the more common medals but reusing the difficult to find foreign awards
- Dondero then sent Doolittle the new medal bars and the old, left over medals.
- The old ones are pictured here.
- The collector has pinned them to modern ribbon bar mounts to display/store them.

#15 4STARCHRIS

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 06:41 AM

What I think he is saying is:

-These medals were sent to Dondero to be redone
- Dondero filled the order, completely replacing the more common medals but reusing the difficult to find foreign awards
- Dondero then sent Doolittle the new medal bars and the old, left over medals.
- The old ones are pictured here.
- The collector has pinned them to modern ribbon bar mounts to display/store them.


The only correction I would make is that Dondero did not send back the old ones. Gen Doolittle only was sent the new ones and the foriegn ribbons back.
Thanks in trying to clear up the confusion. The ORIGINAL Doolittle minis are what you see posted. I nor anyone else has manilpulated/ put togather the bar.
Chris

#16 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 07:31 AM

The only correction I would make is that Dondero did not send back the old ones. Gen Doolittle only was sent the new ones and the foriegn ribbons back.
Thanks in trying to clear up the confusion. The ORIGINAL Doolittle minis are what you see posted. I nor anyone else has manilpulated/ put togather the bar.
Chris


If I would have posted this group on the forum , to Allan's point , I would have dislcosed all of this information in the first post. that way there would not have been any " open to speculation" or confusion by the membership of the forum. When you post a group like this, and you know know important information like this and dont disclose it up front, you leave the item open to discussion.

In my opinion there was plenty to discuss. A set of minatures with a photocopied work order is not iron clad provenance. They extra information provided at the end of the thread clears up some questions.

Kurt

Edited by KASTAUFFER, 03 April 2007 - 07:34 AM.


#17 4STARCHRIS

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 09:11 AM

Kurt,
Thank you for your reply. However, I post things here for people to enjoy and see things that they may never see in a lifetime. I need no clarification to the origin or the provenance. Some on this Forum find fault in everything. Sweet, whatever.
I do not know you or Allan whatever again.
Please do not imply I make things up or they are not what I said they are... PERIOD!
I do not send a bunch of information uyp front because I choose not to. The items should be enjoyed not judged.
Members out of the country have no chance to see things like this. Ricardo-Brazil for instance. I post for enjoyment not harrasement.
Thanks for you all opinions. Everybody has one. However, sometime just enjoy.
4starchris

#18 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 10:29 AM

Chris

# 1 , no one has implied you " made anything up ". Sometimes others do that and then we buy it not knowing it has been done.

A forum is designed to be a place where members exchange information and ideas so that we all can learn from it. The object here is for the members of the forum to LEARN through the posts we add .

I have learned long ago to think for myself and not to take everything at face value that I see . That includes asking questions and putting forth questions that may ď not be popular ď. lawyers do this in courtrooms every day.

When I post an item on the forum, I always try to include as much background information about it as I can to help others learn about the item and to answer obvious questions that will be asked if I donít. . If I post something that may be questionable to someone, I expect to be asked about it. I will then answer it the best I can.

To assume just because YOU post an item, that we all MUST believe it's real, is counterproductive to the nature of a forum. We are here to teach others what to look for, and to learn ourselves.

Kurt

#19 4STARCHRIS

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 10:58 AM

Kurt,
Post 12 clearly states.. and I quote" This would have been simpler if you wwould have explained that the medals were Doolittle's but that they have been RECONSTRUCTED to approximate his awards." Does it not clearly state or imply I MADE IT UP!
2nd This is not a courtroom. A forum allows others to enjoy what others may have. I do not post items for all to speculate on the authenticity of the item. I do not have to explain in a forum the authenticity for I KNOW WHERE IT CAME FORM AND FROM WHOM. You are entitled to your opinion and concerns, whatever this means. I am not selling it or asking that it be validated.
Why can't the FORUM enjoy the posting?
A little respect for someone without questioning the item would be nice. If you were buying it or I was selling it this is a different issue. I was merely showing an item out of my extensive general officer collection for all to enjoy.
However, who can enjoy this post now that all yo have done is question the authenticity and my character.
Great, I hope others enjoy you guys harrasement. Clearly I wonder who died and made you guys the so call "EXPERT".
Instead of tearing my post apart. Why don't you validate your issues with fact!

#20 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 11:30 AM

You are not listening to what I have to say.

I asked intelligent questions, and explained the purpose of those questions.

I never said it was fake. I asked for clarification on certain issues which you responded to. Your answers made sense as to extablishing why the bar looks like it does.

We all learned from that.

Like I said.... people here expect to learn something, not be shown something with no explanation as to why " it is what it is" .

You need to expect feedback, not discourage it.

I have collected US medals and have studied them for 25 years and do have a little knowledge about them. My questions are based on what I have seen during that time.

I'm done .

Kurt

#21 Bob Hudson

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 11:50 AM

Before the rhetoric escalates into a shooting match, we will lock this thread. If any conclusions need to be drawn, there are certainly sufficient questions and answers posted to do that and it appears that anything else would be counterproductive.


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