Jump to content


Photo

Wing from Terry Morris's Book on ebay


  • Please log in to reply
61 replies to this topic

#1 Croix de Guerre

Croix de Guerre
  • Members
    • Member ID: 3,356
  • 1,914 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peachtree

Posted 25 March 2009 - 07:08 PM

I wonder how high it will go?

http://cgi.ebay.com/...-WW...:1|294:50

Edited by Croix de Guerre, 25 March 2009 - 07:14 PM.


#2 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 26 March 2009 - 05:12 PM

I'm going to say........in the $2,500.00 range since his wing and period photo appear in that book.

#3 baker502

baker502
  • Members
    • Member ID: 512
  • 1,872 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nunya

Posted 26 March 2009 - 07:57 PM

I;d bet a bit higher since it has his French Brevet and Brevet document. Both are hard things to find to a American aviator. Nice group. Paul

#4 Gary Cain

Gary Cain
  • Members
    • Member ID: 96
  • 1,651 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Carson City Nevada

Posted 26 March 2009 - 09:36 PM

If this group doesn't break 3500 I will be mightily surprised.


Gary

#5 none

none
  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,465
  • 251 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indianapolis

Posted 27 March 2009 - 04:27 AM

I am suspect. The French wing is Post WWI. Look at the ID number, WWI are only four digits according to Don Chalif's book.

#6 baker502

baker502
  • Members
    • Member ID: 512
  • 1,872 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nunya

Posted 27 March 2009 - 07:02 AM

"Military Pilot Brevets issued, from the first one back in 1911 there were a total of 17,034 issued by 11 November 1918."
quote from The Aerodrome under WW1 French pilot badges.
Paul



http://www.theaerodr...ot-s-badge.html

#7 njaviators

njaviators
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,331
  • 67 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 09:29 AM

"Military Pilot Brevets issued, from the first one back in 1911 there were a total of 17,034 issued by 11 November 1918."
quote from The Aerodrome under WW1 French pilot badges.
Paul
http://www.theaerodr...ot-s-badge.html


Chalif is incorrect here and it appears the # from teh Aerodrome is inaccurate as well. I've looked through a complete listing of all French Brevets (to FAS and USAS pilot) and it is much over the 17,000 # though I don't recall what the final count was. Just a sampling of Brevet #'s from New Jersey boys culled from that original lsit:

John R. Adams # 7478 13 June 1917
Whiting Anthony 12649 on 6 April 1918 (Issodun)
Wm. N. Beaumont #10152 on 30th November 1917 (over 10K already on 30 Nov 1917....)
Wm. D. Craven #12312 on 15 March 1918
Austen D. Crehore #8983 on 28 September 1917.
Stuart E. Edgar #8857 on 23 September 1917
Lewis C. Haigh #17661 2 June 1918

etc....

Lewis Pennock # 17572 31 July 1918
William D. Speck #17688 1 November 1918 <== tough to reconcile the #/date but it's accurate.

So two things are obvious from this abreviated list - more than 17,000 and they were not awarded completely sequentially based on date.

These numbers - except for Pennocks - came from the list of all pilots receiving their brevets. I only know of one copy (other than the original) and unfortunately, I do not own it! Pennock's Bevet # came from his Carnet so it's certainly accurate.

I'd be more interested to know if the number stamped on the back matches the awarded Brevet #. I've heard it was not always so. If anyone knows the answer to that, I'd be very interested to hear of it....

Keep at it,
Mike

Edited by njaviators, 27 March 2009 - 09:58 AM.


#8 ottodog8

ottodog8
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,430
  • 99 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 02:48 PM

Maybe it's just the poor photo, but the numbers on the French badge look strange to me.
Steve

#9 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:06 PM

I am posting the photos from the auction here to keep the thread from becoming useless after the ebay link expires.



#10 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:07 PM



#11 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:08 PM



#12 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:09 PM



#13 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:09 PM



#14 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:10 PM



#15 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:10 PM

I tried cleaning this up a bit, but that glare is just too much.


Edited by IMPERIAL QUEST, 27 March 2009 - 05:56 PM.


#16 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:11 PM

Maybe it's just the poor photo, but the numbers on the French badge look strange to me.
Steve



Hi Steve,

Can you please elaborate on what it is about them that looks strange to you please?

#17 JDK

JDK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,901
  • 3,873 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:27 PM

I have to agree with what others have said. For such a supposed valuable item,
the photos are extremely poor. The details are impossible to make out.
JD

#18 trenchbuff

trenchbuff
  • Members
    • Member ID: 944
  • 2,332 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Big Sky Country

Posted 27 March 2009 - 05:00 PM

Chalif also mentions that wartime French badges have a B prefix and small numbers. If Chalif's book is correct on that point, this one doesn't appear to have the B prefix, at least that I can see from the photo.

#19 ottodog8

ottodog8
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,430
  • 99 posts

Posted 28 March 2009 - 04:47 AM

The circled "B" prefix seems to be missing, and to my eyes, the numbers do not appear to be the correct size and font. They look more engraved then stamped. Again, hard to tell from the poor photos. They may be his wings, but I doubt they were the ones issued to him. Now, there may be a perfectly logical explanation, but it sure raises red flags for me.
Steve

#20 ottodog8

ottodog8
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,430
  • 99 posts

Posted 28 March 2009 - 05:05 AM

Here's an original.

http://www.ww2wings....enchpilot.shtml


Steve

#21 none

none
  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,465
  • 251 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indianapolis

Posted 28 March 2009 - 07:22 AM

From my understanding, and from the collectors I have talked to, the “original” WWI French Wing, all had the “B”, and were only had four digit numbers, so this is a post war wing.

#22 trenchbuff

trenchbuff
  • Members
    • Member ID: 944
  • 2,332 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Big Sky Country

Posted 28 March 2009 - 07:22 AM

Here's an original.

http://www.ww2wings....enchpilot.shtml
Steve


Yep, big difference. Like you say though Steve, could be a reason for it, but sure does raise some questions. Somebody seems to like the groups though.

#23 baker502

baker502
  • Members
    • Member ID: 512
  • 1,872 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nunya

Posted 28 March 2009 - 08:16 AM

Again,
Yes it should have a hallmark before the number but I really doubt that there was just 4 digit numbers as there was over 17000 pilots breveted by the French in WW1 before November 11th 1918. So unless they discontinued the numbering which they obviously did not as there is the numbered post war reference. I think that there were 5 digit numbered French pilot badges. I personally do not like the fact that most of the photo's are not clear on the auction and personally do not want this for my own collections, but as I stated before you do not see French pilot brevets attributed to USAS pilot come up for sale, this is the first one I have seen for sale since I started collecting Air Service stuff in 1991.. just my 2 cents... Paul

Edited by baker502, 28 March 2009 - 08:20 AM.


#24 njaviators

njaviators
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,331
  • 67 posts

Posted 28 March 2009 - 09:01 AM

From my understanding, and from the collectors I have talked to, the “original” WWI French Wing, all had the “B”, and were only had four digit numbers, so this is a post war wing.


So does that imply the badge numbers do not corerspond to the brevet #'s ? Clearly, there were more than 4 digits worth of brevets handed out and the 17,600+ range was reached before 11 November.

The Bevet paperwork here is clearly numbered and dated so if the badges only ever showed 4 digits before 11 November, then the badge#'s could not have matched the issue brevet #.

I have to agree about the "Circle B" - I've not seen any known original badges without it.

Does anyone know definitively if the badge # matches the bevet # ?

Mike

#25 IMPERIAL QUEST

IMPERIAL QUEST
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,000
  • 3,923 posts

Posted 28 March 2009 - 09:09 AM

Rotten photos indeed. I tried to make the number a little more readable...


I see 12933...but there is a lot of distortion.


Edited by IMPERIAL QUEST, 28 March 2009 - 12:38 PM.



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users