1913 Pistol Belt Saber Question

[unterhund]

Gents--I've got one of those 1913 web pistol belts with the ring (?) for the saber hanger. Can anyone tell me which saber hanger and which saber would be worn on this belt?

 

A picture would be great.

 

Any thoughts or anecdotes on the carrying and use of the saber with this belt? It seems to be a real meeting of the 19th and 20th centuries.

[unterhund]

OOPS! Sorry, I mean 1912 pistol belt. Please forgive the FNG.

[alibi]

See this post, I think it will answer your question.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=3304

 

The thread "M1903 sabre hanger" is in FIELD GEAR & EQUIPMENT if this URL doesn't get you there.

[unterhund]

Thanks, US Canteen Guru. That did help quite a bit. However, can anyone tell me which saber would have been worn on this belt? The "Patton" saber seems not to have been worn on the person, but rather on the horse. What other saber was issued at the same time as this belt?

 

And what, if any, combat action might this combination have seen? Apparently, no sabers were carried during the Punitive Expedition. Where else might a saber (worn on a 1912 pistol belt) have been blooded?

 

Was there a saber issued to infantry officers at this time that might have been carried into action? Seems anachronistic, but I wonder....

[artu44]

If I remember well from old topics, NCOs were authorized to wear the M1902 sabre on parades only.

[SARGE]

Unterhund,

 

You ask a very good question about what sword would have been worn with this belt. I have never seen a photo of it in wear with a sword.

 

There are a couple of possibilities. One is the 1902 Saber for all Officers as mentioned but I know of no regulations that allow enlisted men to wear this sword. Senior NCOs were authorized to wear the old so-called 1860 Staff & Field Officer sword on slings and/or in a frog. But, these old 1872 regulation swords were all out of date and superceded by the 1902 Officer Saber.

 

Another possibility is the iron hilt version of the enlisted Light Cavalry Sabre as manufactured by Ames in 1906. This supplemented the so-called 1860 Light Cavalry Sabre with a brass hilt. But, this sword was theoretically superceded by the Experimental Cavalry Saber from 1905-1906 and then the 1913 Cavalry Sword you have mentioned. The 1913 Cavalry Sword was not worn on the person of the enlisted man but was attached to the horse equipments.

 

The best bet is the so-called Experimental Cavalry Saber. The"Provisional Regulations for Saber Exercise of the United States Army" published in 1908 shows this sword in wear. This manual consists of saber exercise on foot and mounted. The illustrations show this saber in use with these sword hangers with a leather belt.

 

I suspect no combat use of these equipments occurred.

[SARGE]

Officers might have worn the 1902 Officers Saber on this belt. While some nickeled scabbards exist for the 1913 Cavalry Sword that could be worn on slings, I would think this use was very limited by officers. I know, I know, a photo of Patton wearing one exists but not with this belt.

 

IMHO, if an Army Officer were to wear a sword on this belt it would most probably have been worn with officer slings and not the chain suspension normally worn on the 1902 Officer Saber. Here is a set of the bullion officer slings that would not have been worn on the web belt but would have been worn on the bullion dress belt to show the style.

 

 

Here is a set of black leather officer slings of the same design.

 

 

Here is a set of similar brown leather officer slings.

 

 

Finally, an example of the standard nickeled saber chains for officers that were normally worn with the 1902 Officer Saber.

 

[unterhund]

Thanks again, gentlemen. This subject may prove to be too esoteric for even this forum. I appreciate the knowledge I have gleaned already. It is intersting, is it not--the idea of a saber, which epitomizes the 19th century approach to combat, being carried on a 1912 web pistol belt? I mean, ceremonial usage of the 1902 (and other) sabers still persists to this day, but the web belt implies actual field usage.

 

 

As I indulge some romanticism, I wonder if this combination of equipment might have seen action at some place like Bagsac, in the Philippines, in 1913. Doesn't it seem that this represents a cusp, or a dovetail, of two eras?

 

Of course, there exists the unlikely chance of an infantry officer wearing a 1902 saber on a 1912 web belt in France, 1917-1918.

 

But it's probably more likely that the edged weapon on a belt like that would have been the 1917 "Trench" knife.

 

Would an officer in France during "the Great War" be allowed to wear the edged weapon or pistol of his choosing? There must have been some naive shavetail, fresh from VMI or the Point, who wanted to clip a saber to his Mills belt.

[artu44]

In an old Gunboard they said that M1912 NCO pistol belts with sabre hanger got a saber attached only in parades, not in combat or any other duties.

[alibi]

When it comes to discussing uniform regulations and officers there was some interesting things officers got away with in the field or on campaign that are documented. The further you go back in history the more you will find deviations from regulations that were ignored or encouraged by senior officers. The higher the rank the more likely would be personal modifications or deviations from authorized equipment.

 

First you have to get the idea that officers were required to provide uniforms for themselves and "issue" of field equipment was optional. Officers were provided uniform and subsistence allowances in their pay. The former to purchase uniforms and the later to purchase food. The uniform companies did and still do offer a variety in the quality of materials and insignia that generally meet the uniform regulations. A new officer with no other income than military pay would usually purchase the less expensive items. Even the M1902 sword came in a variety of quality and prices.

 

Officers could purchase field equipment from "outfitters" or from the government. For example the pistol belt could have been purchased from Mills, any of the companies that carried a line of mills items or from the government. In any case the belt became the property of the officer. Getting into firearms there are a number of examples of officers that provided for themselves. Probably the most famous personal choice firearm is General Patton's ivory handled Colt SAA.

 

An officer would have to be pretty eccentric to carry a firearm in combat that was not chambered for available government ammunition. The most notable exception to this is the wide spread use of personal firearms by people of all ranks in Viet Nam. Officers were also allowed to draw unit firearms and field equipment that remained the property of the government. The small arms used by officers since War with Spain have for the most part been the issue weapon and there is now far less use of personal firearms in lieu of the authorized TOE weapon.

 

The regulation uniform belts for officers during the WWI period were leather. The leather garrison and field belt was provided with sword hangers. The M1902 sword was prescribed in regulations and generally only worn in garrison on ceremonial or official occasions. However I have images of officers carrying M1902 swords in camp in the field during training. Anyone carrying a sword in WWI combat would have really been eccentric (even MacArthur didn't carry a sword).

 

In the A.E.F. officers were expected (read required) to provide themselves with Sam Browne belts. On ceremonial or formal occasions officers would normally carry their swords. The use of the Sam Browne continued after the Great War and the sword was only worn with that belt except in full dress uniform. In the inter war years the prescribed field equipment for officers was leather.

 

For most of the history of enlisted soldiers in the U.S. military everything was provided (issued), from socks to barracks. The quantity provided was sometimes inadequate and enlisted men had to purchase any uniforms beyond the quantity authorized. Enlisted men were required to pay for any issued property lost, damaged, destroyed etc. and to purchase replacement uniform items. There were of course enlisted men that purchased tailor made uniforms, especially those stationed or visiting locales where materials and tailoring was inexpensive.

 

With the uniform regulations of 1902 and thereafter the only enlisted men authorized sabers were cavalry and light (field) artillery. The M1860 saber was of course still considered a combat weapon and intended to be carried on campaign. In 1912 the Cavalry Equipment Board designed a set of horse equipments that included the M1912 saber. For those cavalry soldiers issued the experimental horse equipments the cartridge and pistol belts did not provide for carrying the saber dismounted. As was mentioned previously during the Punitive Expedition the sabers were left in garrison. In fact the last use of the saber in combat was during a few of the Indian war skirmishes shortly after the Civil War. After WWI the M1912 saber replaced the M1860 saber, for all cavalry troops.

 

After 1902 non-commissioned officers were authorized the prior infantry officer's sword. This is a straight sword that had features of the Staff and Field Officer's sword and considerably more ornate than the M1840 NCO sword previously prescribed. The same type of change was made in the Marine Corps when officer's were authorized the Marmaluke hilt sword and NCOs the sword formerly authorized officers (BTW the same sword still used by Marine NCO's).

 

During WWI in France if an officer had occasion to carry a M1902 sword on parade it was most likely with the Sam Browne belt. I doubt that any enlisted soldier had a sword in France except perhaps the AEF sergeant major and senior staff NCOs.

[unterhund]

My Dad was one of those officers expected to have a Sam Browne belt. He was drafted in mid-1941, and by late 1942, his leadership qualities had become apparent. He went to OCS, and was commissioned in early '43. When he visited home for the last time before being sent into action, he was a fresh 2nd Lieutenant, and was wearing a new Sam Browne (including the saber guard). He never wore it after that. He was sent to places where such gear was irrelevant. I have it still, and will post about it and some of his other equipment, in the appropriate forum in the near future.

 

Thanks again to all for the great info.