Strange WW1 Era USN Aviation Jumper--Help!

[cwnorma]

All,

 

I have had this jumper for some time. For all intents and purposes, it is a run of the mill WW1 era jumper.

 

 

As you can see, on the left sleeve, it has the specialty mark for Machinist Mate Aviation. On the right sleeve is a Recruit/Apprentice Petty Officer First Class Chevron with an apprentice mark in the middle. The chevron is smaller than usual, being only 2" wide.

 

I know that this represents a Machinist Mate Aviation Apprentice, recruit, or trainee, but what does that actually mean in terms of:

 

- What would be the duties of an Machinist Mate Aviation Apprentice/trainee/recruit?

- Why would a recruit have Seaman 1st Class cuff stripes (3)?

- Does this mean that he was a 1st Class of some other specialty doing an apprenticeship to "cross-train" into the Machinist Mate Aviation Rate?

- Or was he an Machinist Mate Aviation, 2nd Class apprenticing to be a 1st Class?

- When, where, and under what circumstances were apprentice and ex-apprentice marks worn?

- In 1918, was there an entire "system" of Apprentice rates, or is 1st Class (three chevrons) the only one?

- Wouldn't a recruit normally remove this rating upon graduating?

 

Thanks in advance for helping me get my head wrapped around this one.

 

Chris

[Bob Hudson]

That would be an Apprentice First Class rating, a grade equal to Seaman Second Class, or Ordinary Seaman.

 

From what I have read, the Apprentice program was ended in 1904 and rolled into the Landsman rating. There is info on that here: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq78-1.htm

 

And then we find this interesting bit of info at http://bluejacket.com/sea-service_nap_index.htm

 

"In March 1917, a recruiting program is implemented to enlist 200 men specifically for aviation duty. The plan is to enlist 100 Landsman to train for Quartermaster (Aviation) and 100 Landsman to train for Machinist's Mate (Aviation). This first aviation rate training is in Pensacola. The bluejackets are schooled in five basic subjects and detailed to serve in ground maintenance."

 

What I have not found is an example of what a Landsman would have worn on his sleeve.

[topdcnut]

Landsmen are the ratings not covered by seaman or engineering specialties.

Maybe this guy was a trained aeroplane mechanic who enlisted with advanced paygrade and was a first class apprentice petty officer in bootcamp and the war ended and he went home with uniform............ohh sorry I doubt it. It reminds me of a Wave uniform I purchased at an auction that was a custom tailored WAVE summer white that was sporting a blue 3rd Cl rating and coast guard buttons, I think the lady changed it for a holloween costume, I do not think the bootcamp rating badges were worn outside of the training site.

 

John

[cwnorma]

Maybe this guy was a trained aeroplane mechanic who enlisted with advanced paygrade and was a first class apprentice petty officer in bootcamp and the war ended and he went home with uniform............ohh sorry I doubt it.

 

Thanks for responding. Lets get this back on track:

 

I am not claiming this to be anything more than exactly what you see here. I have had this jumper for a long time, and just happened to see it while going through a trunk of Navy items, and thought it was odd. So I posted it here expressly to get others opinions. When I bought it, (1980s) there wasn't a huge market in faking up low-end WW1 Navy stuff.

 

It all black lights just fine, and there is evidence that the chevron has been on this coat a long time. Given that I probably paid $15 for it 20 or more years ago, I am not too concerned that someone tried to foist it off to me as a "great rarity."

 

On the other hand, I have seen enough "never say never" WW1 stuff to where, despite my naturally skeptical nature, I am willing to allow the item to stand on face value.

 

So to turn this around, what would be the "correct" or "normal" configuration for a chevron like this to be worn? Does anyone else have an example on a jumper?

 

Thanks!

 

Chris

[QED4]

Keep in mind that not every uniform that has been dummied up was done to separate a collector from his money. You will see uniforms that some kid had his mother sew all sorts of things on to make it look better or Halloween costumes, who wants to wear just a plain uniform? Go to any high school that is doing South Pacific and I guarantee you will see some strange uniforms. Just because something isn't worth anything doesn't mean it hasn't been put together it is done for other reason than to make money.

[cwnorma]

Keep in mind that not every uniform that has been dummied up was done to separate a collector from his money. You will see uniforms that some kid had his mother sew all sorts of things on to make it look better or Halloween costumes, who wants to wear just a plain uniform? Go to any high school that is doing South Pacific and I guarantee you will see some strange uniforms. Just because something isn't worth anything doesn't mean it hasn't been put together it is done for other reason than to make money.

 

 

The Apprentice rate is expertly cross-stitched on in a shield shape and is the scarce early (1918) design with the eagle sitting on the knot. The jumper itself is WW1 vintage; in the slightly more blue color, with draw string, and early-style cuff buttons. The Aviation striker is also early, with an "S" shaped propeller, and "stumpy" wings. None of it glows under black light, I truly doubt it was put together for a high school rendition of "South Pacific." On the other hand, everything about this jumper (insignia, buttons, construction) indicates WW1 era. I am not saying it is not put together, but if it was, then it was put together in a cogent fashion; that is each piece of insignia, and the jumper itself is correct for WW1.

 

Given that this may not be, does anyone have any information on what might be the "correct" configuration of a WW1 era Apprentice/Recruit jumper? Is there any reference anywhere? The 1913 and 1917 USN uniform regs are silent on this matter. Has anyone actually seen a jumper like this, or have a period photograph of recruits in 1918 wearing the Apprentice Rates?

 

Chris

[Bob Hudson]

I still think this has something to do with the "Landsman Machinist's Mate, Aviation" grade used in 1917 when Naval aviation was getting started. Remember that the old Apprentice program was folded into the Landsman program after 1904 and that the Apprentice rate of "modern times" may have little to do with the way it was in the early 20th century.

[sigsaye]

I still think this has something to do with the "Landsman Machinist's Mate, Aviation" grade used in 1917 when Naval aviation was getting started. Remember that the old Apprentice program was folded into the Landsman program after 1904 and that the Apprentice rate of "modern times" may have little to do with the way it was in the early 20th century.

"In March 1917, a recruiting program is implemented to enlist 200 men specifically for aviation duty. The plan is to enlist 100 Landsman to train for Quartermaster (Aviation) and 100 Landsman to train for Machinist's Mate (Aviation). This first aviation rate training is in Pensacola. The bluejackets are schooled in five basic subjects and detailed to serve in ground maintenance."

 

 

That's your answer. The guy was enlisted under tha aviation maintenance program. In the beginning, the winged ptopeller was used to designate any enlisted person in aviation. This is because in WW 1 there were no aviation rating badges. The same went for construction personel. I have a WW 1 jumper with an EM 1 crow and the crossed deviders used to designate construction. This jumper belonged to some one enlisted into Naval Aviation in WW 1 and who was a Recruit PO1. Most likely, he was already a skilled mechanic and upon graduation from Boot Camp, was advanced to Chief, and simply packed his boot camp uniforms away. Not all that uncommon a situation. Nice jumper.

 

Steve Hesson

[kfields]

Hello, My knowledge of Navy ratings and ranks could fit into the head of a thimble so I am not certain how pertinent my thread will be to this discussion. However I'll bull my way in here anyway and hope it is not considered a hijack of the thread.

I picked up this wool Navy jumper and two pairs of pants(?) four years ago at a local flea market for $25-ish if I recollect correctly. It was hanging on a rack of old vintage clothing. Named in the hem of the pants and jumper is the fellows name in white paint: "Earle Rothgeb". With a name like that, you would think he would be easy to find on some list somewhere! Anyway from what I have been told he is an Aviation Machinist Mate who served during the first world war in a combat zone based on the 6 month chevron on his sleeve. Ship based or land based I don't know. In my attempts to research him, one of the other guys says he was from Wyandot county, Ohio AND Iroquois County, Illinois. I was not able to find him listed in the Ohio soldiers and sailors book and my first try with the National Personnel Center at St Louis was met with silence. I'll probably make another try this year. Kim

[dpcsdan]

Given that the usage of apprentice rating badges in boot camp was started during this time period and the special aviation training classes were started at this time, it is quite possible that the training command chose to have class leaders use the new, at that time, apprentice rating badges during this training.

This individual would likely have been a highly thought of seaman 1c, chosen for the new aviation training program, and also chosen to be a class leader.

I can find no navy regulations or period photographs to support this hypothesis.

Nice jumper/blouse, looks correct to me, not anything near the normal "middy" finds.

-dan

[camonick]

Hi guys-

 

I have been following this thread and another about unknown navy patches for several days now. I am really confused about the use of the "square knot" and the "figure 8 knot" to denote the Apprentice rank/rate. I know there are several forum members trying to pin down which it is. Does anybody have any documents or regulations that specify which it is? Were they interchangable? Here is an excerpt from the NavSource website Link: Alabama BB8

Notice the sailor's T-shirt. This photo is from 1903. It is clearly a figure 8 knot. There are also a couple of other photos that show the same knot on the sailor's neckerchiefs from the early 1900's. Everything I have seen for the Apprentice / ex-apprentice is the figure 8 knot.

 

I will stay posted to see if anything develops.

 

Nick

[dpcsdan]

Here's a link to more information about the Navy's Apprentice Boy program: http://navalapprentice.white-navy.com/index.shtml

 

John Stacey has a writeup about the use of the square knot vs. figure-8 knot with Apprentice Petty Officer rating badges. Square know was used officially from approx. 1917 to sometime between 1922-1933 when the figure-8 knot was introduced.

 

As many existing examples show, and as John Stacey comments on, the square knot continued to be used in some boot camp companies for many years past the 1933 date. Also, right facing Eagles continued to be used off and on well past 1948. Apprentice rating badges were used in boot camp until around the 1975 uniform change.

 

Another interesting fact about Apprentice Petty Officer rating badges is that not all boot camp companies utilized them. Whether looking at boot company photos from San Diego, Great Lakes, Sampson, NY, Bainbridge, Orlando, or others training centers...some companies show recruits wearing Apprentice Petty Officer rating badges and some do not. It is possible some Company Commanders had then removed before the official company photo was taken.

 

-dan

[camonick]

Here's a link to more information about the Navy's Apprentice Boy program: http://navalapprentice.white-navy.com/index.shtml

 

John Stacey has a writeup about the use of the square knot vs. figure-8 knot with Apprentice Petty Officer rating badges. Square know was used officially from approx. 1917 to sometime between 1922-1933 when the figure-8 knot was introduced.......

 

-dan

 

Here is an excerpt from the 'REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE UNIFORM OF COMMISSIONED OFFICERS, WARRANT OFFICERS AND ENLISTED MEN OF THE NAVY OF THE UNITED STATES 1905' under the Distinguishing Marks heading: LINK HERE

 

{Apprentice mark a (Pl. XXXI, fig. 3): A figure-of-eight knot, 2 inches long, to be worn by all enlisted persons who have passed through the rating of apprentice in the Navy. On the overshirt and the dress and undress jumpers it is to be worn on the breast, 2 inches below the neck opening, and on all coats, except overcoats, it is to be worn on the outside of the same sleeve as the rating badge, halfway between the elbow and wrist.}

 

Including an example on plate XXXI: Which coincides with the mark on the 1903 photographs of enlisted men.

 

This is some of the research I have uncovered. I assume everybody is talking about the same terminology? I am still trying to absorb all of the terms the Navy has used through the years. How does the "APPRENTICE" rate fit in the rating structure? (how does it compare to Seaman Apprentice? Seaman Recruit, etc. --above or below??? is it between Seaman and Seaman Apprentice??) Please bear with me as I am trying to understand how this fits in with all of the other rates? Maybe eventually, I will understand all of this.

 

Thanks for your patience and help!

Nick

[cwnorma]

"In March 1917, a recruiting program is implemented to enlist 200 men specifically for aviation duty. The plan is to enlist 100 Landsman to train for Quartermaster (Aviation) and 100 Landsman to train for Machinist's Mate (Aviation). This first aviation rate training is in Pensacola. The bluejackets are schooled in five basic subjects and detailed to serve in ground maintenance."

That's your answer. The guy was enlisted under tha aviation maintenance program. In the beginning, the winged ptopeller was used to designate any enlisted person in aviation. This is because in WW 1 there were no aviation rating badges. The same went for construction personel. I have a WW 1 jumper with an EM 1 crow and the crossed deviders used to designate construction. This jumper belonged to some one enlisted into Naval Aviation in WW 1 and who was a Recruit PO1. Most likely, he was already a skilled mechanic and upon graduation from Boot Camp, was advanced to Chief, and simply packed his boot camp uniforms away. Not all that uncommon a situation. Nice jumper.

 

Steve Hesson

Steve,

 

Thanks for the information! I knew that it wasn't put together--all signs led to it being correct, but I just couldn't quite understand what it all meant together. I am not all that familiar with this aspect of Navy uniforms.

 

Best wishes!

 

Chris

[cwnorma]

Hello, My knowledge of Navy ratings and ranks could fit into the head of a thimble so I am not certain how pertinent my thread will be to this discussion. However I'll bull my way in here anyway and hope it is not considered a hijack of the thread.

I picked up this wool Navy jumper and two pairs of pants(?) four years ago at a local flea market for $25-ish if I recollect correctly. It was hanging on a rack of old vintage clothing. Named in the hem of the pants and jumper is the fellows name in white paint: "Earle Rothgeb". With a name like that, you would think he would be easy to find on some list somewhere! Anyway from what I have been told he is an Aviation Machinist Mate who served during the first world war in a combat zone based on the 6 month chevron on his sleeve. Ship based or land based I don't know. In my attempts to research him, one of the other guys says he was from Wyandot county, Ohio AND Iroquois County, Illinois. I was not able to find him listed in the Ohio soldiers and sailors book and my first try with the National Personnel Center at St Louis was met with silence. I'll probably make another try this year. Kim

 

Kim,

 

Great uniform. I like it a lot! I can't get enough of WW1 Aviation items!

 

Chris

[cwnorma]

Given that the usage of apprentice rating badges in boot camp was started during this time period and the special aviation training classes were started at this time, it is quite possible that the training command chose to have class leaders use the new, at that time, apprentice rating badges during this training.

This individual would likely have been a highly thought of seaman 1c, chosen for the new aviation training program, and also chosen to be a class leader.

I can find no navy regulations or period photographs to support this hypothesis.

Nice jumper/blouse, looks correct to me, not anything near the normal "middy" finds.

-dan

Dan,

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, and the information! I could pretty much tell that it wasn't a put together. All the correct signs were there; construction, commensurate wear, etc. But not being very well versed in this aspect of US Navy rates, I wasn't really able to "understand" what it was I had.

 

Between you and Steve, I believe you have answered my questions, and I thank you both!

 

Chris

[sigsaye]

Here is an excerpt from the 'REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE UNIFORM OF COMMISSIONED OFFICERS, WARRANT OFFICERS AND ENLISTED MEN OF THE NAVY OF THE UNITED STATES 1905' under the Distinguishing Marks heading: LINK HERE

 

{Apprentice mark a (Pl. XXXI, fig. 3): A figure-of-eight knot, 2 inches long, to be worn by all enlisted persons who have passed through the rating of apprentice in the Navy. On the overshirt and the dress and undress jumpers it is to be worn on the breast, 2 inches below the neck opening, and on all coats, except overcoats, it is to be worn on the outside of the same sleeve as the rating badge, halfway between the elbow and wrist.}

 

Including an example on plate XXXI: Which coincides with the mark on the 1903 photographs of enlisted men.

 

This is some of the research I have uncovered. I assume everybody is talking about the same terminology? I am still trying to absorb all of the terms the Navy has used through the years. How does the "APPRENTICE" rate fit in the rating structure? (how does it compare to Seaman Apprentice? Seaman Recruit, etc. --above or below??? is it between Seaman and Seaman Apprentice??) Please bear with me as I am trying to understand how this fits in with all of the other rates? Maybe eventually, I will understand all of this.

 

Thanks for your patience and help!

Nick

Nick, You may be getting it confused, as these are all different things and not related. The "Apprentice Petty Officer" was a position of authority that a recruit was placed in in Boot Camp. Much like the Armys acting squad leader. Platoon leader, what have you. It is not related to the "Apprentice Boy" ptogram.

 

The knot (either square or figure eight) was the symbol of the "Apprentice " program, and was used along with letters to signify qualifications. It became the symbol for "Apprentice". When the "Apprentice" program dies in '03(ish), the knot continues on to identify those Sailors that passed through that program.

 

In 1904 the Navy established its first Boot Camp (Great Lakes ILL). Eventually, they decide that those recruits appointed to leadership roles needed to have some identifying insignia and utilized the current crow with the knot of the "Apprentice" as its device. It was a right arm crow as all recruits are "Apprentice Seamen" (which is a rating identifying the entry level Sailor).

 

And of course, Apprentice Seamen becomes Seaman Recruit in 49 and changes everything.

 

Clear as mud, but it's a Navy thing.

 

Steve Hesson

(Who was just a "Rifle Rick" in Boot Camp)

[dpcsdan]

As Steve mentions, the Apprentice program and Apprentice Petty Officer rating badges were for two different navy programs. The Apprentice program was disestablished in 1904 and the wearing of Apprentice Petty Officer rating badges in boot camp was ceased by 1975. It appears the Apprentice Petty Officer rating badge program was carried out differently by the individual naval training centers (e.g. Great Lakes often used the Seaman Recruit stripe on the left arm with the Apprentice Petty Officer rating badge worn on the right arm).

 

By at least April 1961, and probably before that, the Apprentice Petty Officers were referred to as Recruit Petty Officers at NTC San Diego. As in RCPO (Recruit Chief Petty Officer), RPO1 (Recruit Petty Officer First Class), etc.

 

Here's my boot camp photo of Company 61-148 Recruit Petty Officers, along with our company commander.

 

-dan

[camonick]

.....Clear as mud, but it's a Navy thing.

 

Steve Hesson

(Who was just a "Rifle Rick" in Boot Camp)

 

Steve and Dan--

Thanks for the explainations. My little brain was having a hard time understanding all of this. Having not been in the service myself, I am starting from scratch to learn all of this stuff. I have been up to my eyes trying to research my grandfather and my wife's grandfather who were both in the Navy during WWII. They both had brief stints as SA but went through Midshipman schools (at New York and Abbott Hall, IL, respectively) and "bypassed" all of the enlisted rates. These enlisted rates are what tend to confuse me some. I have a good handle on the rates and specialties now but this "Apprentice" business really threw a wrench in things for me.

 

I'll be sure to start another thread of my own if I have any other questions.

 

Thanks again

Nick

[camonick]

......They both had brief stints as SA but went through Midshipman schools.....

 

I just caught another mistake on my part . As Steve said, "Clear as mud". Depending on the time period being talked about, naval abreviations can mean a completely different thing. One person may mean to say one thing and another might understand it differently.

 

Examples: (in my post above, I should have used the abreviation "AS" for Apprentice Seaman not SA

 

AS= Apprentice Seaman (before 1948) & AS= Aviation Support Equipment Technician (after 1965)

SA= Seaman Apprentice (after 1948) & SA= Special Artificer (before 1948)

 

Crazy, isn't it?

 

Nick

[sigsaye]

I just caught another mistake on my part . As Steve said, "Clear as mud". Depending on the time period being talked about, naval abreviations can mean a completely different thing. One person may mean to say one thing and another might understand it differently.

 

Examples: (in my post above, I should have used the abreviation "AS" for Apprentice Seaman not SA

 

AS= Apprentice Seaman (before 1948) & AS= Aviation Support Equipment Technician (after 1965)

SA= Seaman Apprentice (after 1948) & SA= Special Artificer (before 1948)

 

Crazy, isn't it?

 

Nick

Not crazy just for Navy people. The thing with the Navy is that it is ever evolving, and at the same time remains the same. We just recycle stuff, using it as long as we cna get away with it.

 

Like you said, you cna't just look at one time period and get it, you have to look behind a bit too to see where it cma from to really understand. And then you see that when it comes to "stuff", the Navy really never throughs anything away.

 

Steve Hesson

(Who for a short time was an "AS" (Aviation Support Equipment Technician))