Jump to content


Photo

glider pilots


  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#26 Tonomachi

Tonomachi
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,389
  • 5,387 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 February 2009 - 09:12 AM

Every time I see anything added to a paratrooper, glider rider or para glider wing I'm suspicious. Here is one that is British made but not the typical British made ones you see as this style superimposed glider with a star underneath I've never come across except on this particular wing hallmarked JR Gaunt London.

Attached Images

  • 15_1.jpg
  • 88_1.jpg


#27 Tonomachi

Tonomachi
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,389
  • 5,387 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 February 2009 - 09:18 AM

Here is one on a red oval that looks a like like the one on the blue oval. I have no photo of the back of this Para Glider wing as I copied this image from somewhere. From the chocolate brown color of the uniform this oval is sewn upon it looks like it was on an officer's uniform.

Attached Images

  • A_376.jpg


#28 Tonomachi

Tonomachi
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,389
  • 5,387 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 February 2009 - 09:24 AM

Here is another variation that I know nothing about. It would appear that there were soldiers wearing these Para Glider wings way after the war and manufactured by a couple of different US companies like Gemsco and NS Meyers.

Attached Images

  • glide3.jpg
  • glide4.jpg

Edited by Tonomachi, 13 February 2009 - 09:28 AM.


#29 Cobrahistorian

Cobrahistorian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,470
  • 5,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hovering Along in a Dust Cloud!

Posted 13 February 2009 - 12:55 PM

Every time I see anything added to a paratrooper, glider rider or para glider wing I'm suspicious. Here is one that is British made but not the typical British made ones you see as this style superimposed glider with a star underneath I've never come across except on this particular wing hallmarked JR Gaunt London.



Interesting... the glider's a Horsa, not a CG-4A. That one I could believe is an original, since it is Gaunt hallmarked and has the proper pin....


... but don't quote me on that! ;)

#30 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 13 February 2009 - 02:04 PM

I have to disagree.... the 17th Airborne units like the 193rd and 194th were dual qualified way before the 11th guys. I believe they were made in England well before occupation Japan.

The are FAKE not because of construction but because the originals were made in JAPAN. These wings were a local creation within the 11th Airborne Division, made and worn on Occupation duty, 1946-1948. Thereafter, tehy may have been worn by troops who carried them on from service in Japan, BUT| why oh why would they have been made in BRITAIN?



#31 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 13 February 2009 - 02:35 PM

I've seen some odd ball Japanese made wings but never a paraglider..... or at least I don't think I have. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif All mine are English or American made.

I too feel that this is a Para Glider wing copy that has the rear British style pin back. I have never come across what I felt was an orignal WW2 or occupation period British made Para Glider wing. Here is the only Japanese made occupation period Para Glider wing that I have ever come across. This wing thas the chrome like or maybe rodium plating over brass that you see on Sendai paratrooper wings.



#32 camopara

camopara
  • Members
    • Member ID: 82
  • 726 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Next to Coors

Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:22 PM

The first one list by Tonomachi is a good one!! That is what you look for in occupation made Japanes wings.

Yes, General Miley of the 17th cross trained about 1000 glider guys into paratroopers, and I have had a couple of their groups, and in all of those groups the guys wore both badges, not the combined badge. I have yet to see the combined badge in a 17th group.

I do think the Gemsco and the Meyer wings are period, to the occupation.

#33 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 13 February 2009 - 04:38 PM

This is a good wing I have one in my collection and it is identical even down to the crooked sterling back mark. Mine has one combat star for Wesel.

Is this original WWII period or post?
Regards,
Brian


Edited by 101combatvet, 13 February 2009 - 04:39 PM.


#34 J_Andrews

J_Andrews
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,689
  • 2,881 posts

Posted 13 February 2009 - 06:44 PM

I belonged to the 17th Assn and went to several annual conventions. One of my standard questions was about the Para-Glider wings. Not one in dozens of veterans -- many of whom were dual-qualified -- said that they wore or even ever saw the combined wing. Many of them laughed at the notion. Two of them were officers who had instructed the Glider qualification course(s), Stateside and in France, and themselves got jump qualified. One, who was after the war in the 82nd at Bragg (1946-1948), stated he recalled some ex-11th guys with such wings -- told to take them off.

#35 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 13 February 2009 - 07:34 PM

I was a member also. I do know that near the end of the war and until they stopped using gliders they combined the schools for a few years. So you qualified in both glider and with parachute. Believe what you want the problem here is that most of the paraglider wings are english or american made that are found and not all are fakes. With the exception of the Japanese one posted I have never seen another.... why is that? If only the 11th wore them then why don't you see as many paraglider wings as you do Sendai glider or jump wings. It's very simple.... it doesn't add up.

I belonged to the 17th Assn and went to several annual conventions. One of my standard questions was about the Para-Glider wings. Not one in dozens of veterans -- many of whom were dual-qualified -- said that they wore or even ever saw the combined wing. Many of them laughed at the notion. Two of them were officers who had instructed the Glider qualification course(s), Stateside and in France, and themselves got jump qualified. One, who was after the war in the 82nd at Bragg (1946-1948), stated he recalled some ex-11th guys with such wings -- told to take them off.


Edited by 101combatvet, 13 February 2009 - 07:36 PM.


#36 camopara

camopara
  • Members
    • Member ID: 82
  • 726 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Next to Coors

Posted 13 February 2009 - 08:02 PM

Probably because they were never an official badge whereas the Japanese made jump wings and/or glider badges could be worn as official badges.

#37 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 13 February 2009 - 08:15 PM

This is true.... but that doesn't really help to explain why they didn't make as many in Japan if J_Andrews theory is correct. Actually, I think the Gemsco back marks might be as early as late 1944 or early 1945. One of the guys that I know that got dual qualified in 1946-47 bought a paraglider wing at Bragg... and worn them there until they dumped the glider program. I believe the Army was just issuing the jump wing during that period.... so he went one up on them.

Probably because they were never an official badge whereas the Japanese made jump wings and/or glider badges could be worn as official badges.


Edited by 101combatvet, 13 February 2009 - 08:18 PM.


#38 camopara

camopara
  • Members
    • Member ID: 82
  • 726 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Next to Coors

Posted 13 February 2009 - 08:35 PM

Very possible. As I stated earlier, I like the pinback Gemsco and Meyer badges, it's my hunch that they were not made until after US forces were occupying Japan. It would be interesting if anyone can drum up some kind of documentation on them.

#39 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 13 February 2009 - 09:20 PM

The problem is then why did the British make them after the yanks left? I can't buy it.

Very possible. As I stated earlier, I like the pinback Gemsco and Meyer badges, it's my hunch that they were not made until after US forces were occupying Japan. It would be interesting if anyone can drum up some kind of documentation on them.



#40 camopara

camopara
  • Members
    • Member ID: 82
  • 726 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Next to Coors

Posted 13 February 2009 - 11:27 PM

The question is...did they?

#41 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 14 February 2009 - 07:22 AM

That is very apparent when you look at their construction.... isn't it?

The question is...did they?



#42 camopara

camopara
  • Members
    • Member ID: 82
  • 726 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Next to Coors

Posted 14 February 2009 - 07:43 AM

There is not a real Brit made one in this thread....

#43 J_Andrews

J_Andrews
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,689
  • 2,881 posts

Posted 14 February 2009 - 08:13 AM

Expanding the subject a bit, back in the 1970s, when I was first pursuing British airborne items, I was warned away from Gaunt-marked metal items. The man who warned me was an expert -- John Waring the Secretary of the British "ASMIC". According to him, "NOS" British badge or a British-made U.S. badge -- especially rarities -- that was MARKED was more likely a fake than not. This was because Gaunt and other makers had flushed out their old, obsolete dies when a new wave of regimental and corps consolidations swept through the British forces between 1964 and 1969. So opportunistic dealers snapped up the dies and began making "funny" badges -- nicely marked. IIRC Gaunt was also bought-out and/or corporately re-organized in those days. Therefore, if you see an "odd" badge that is nicely marked, be suspicious. He also said that Gaunt did not mark a majority of their badges -- then ones made on government contract. Marked badges were sold at retail.

#44 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 14 February 2009 - 08:39 AM

The original one posted is British made.... if you don't agree with that then inform us where
it was made.

There is not a real Brit made one in this thread....



#45 camopara

camopara
  • Members
    • Member ID: 82
  • 726 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Next to Coors

Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:00 AM

I've never seen a cast piece, with roller catch claimed to be Brit made.
You've got the shoe on the wrong foot, prove it to be original, not prove it to be fake.

#46 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:08 AM

There is truth to what you've stated and is common knowledge in collecting circles. As has been seen in this thread they have been faked over the years and they are getting much better. I have also researched the subject and there were many more makers of insignia and wings besides the big four. I have spoke to Brits that new peddlers of these unmarked obscure makers and they would sell them off the street at GI discount prices... less quality but cheaper then the big four. It seems that the industry pretty much stopped making US insignia once US troops left the UK. As I stated early I believe the original wing posted is a good one.... and is English made.

Expanding the subject a bit, back in the 1970s, when I was first pursuing British airborne items, I was warned away from Gaunt-marked metal items. The man who warned me was an expert -- John Waring the Secretary of the British "ASMIC". According to him, "NOS" British badge or a British-made U.S. badge -- especially rarities -- that was MARKED was more likely a fake than not. This was because Gaunt and other makers had flushed out their old, obsolete dies when a new wave of regimental and corps consolidations swept through the British forces between 1964 and 1969. So opportunistic dealers snapped up the dies and began making "funny" badges -- nicely marked. IIRC Gaunt was also bought-out and/or corporately re-organized in those days. Therefore, if you see an "odd" badge that is nicely marked, be suspicious. He also said that Gaunt did not mark a majority of their badges -- then ones made on government contract. Marked badges were sold at retail.



#47 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:19 AM

Many Brit made wings were made using the investment casting process.
Look again it's not a "roller catch" it's a "C" clasp and they were used by all
the British makers. Trust me.... I never have worn my shoes on the wrong
foot. So you believe the original paraglider wing is a fake?

I've never seen a cast piece, with roller catch claimed to be Brit made.
You've got the shoe on the wrong foot, prove it to be original, not prove it to be fake.


Edited by 101combatvet, 14 February 2009 - 09:27 AM.


#48 pfrost

pfrost
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,519
  • 4,113 posts

Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:30 PM

With all the caveats of not actually holding the wings, I will go out on a limb and say that yes, I believe the first wings in this thread are reproductions.

Any cast wing is a bad sign. But especially cast wings that use an original as its base. Someone took what was likely an original wing, made a mold, and cast the insignia using a metal that I am almost 100% certain is not in fact sterling silver, made up wings, and then marked them STERLING. The addition of a British style pin and C catch does not especially lend itself to originality, IMHO. At its most basic, this wing is a reproduction of another wing under ANY circumstance. Thus, the next question is when was it made--I doubt it was made in the 40's and in fact suspect it is a lot more recent than that? Lots of these type of reproduction wings have been showing up over the years. I see similar wings with chaplain's crosses, the Star of David, skulls, rigger's "R", you name it. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif

Patrick

#49 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 14 February 2009 - 10:20 PM

http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/laughing1.gif ..... okay.

With all the caveats of not actually holding the wings, I will go out on a limb and say that yes, I believe the first wings in this thread are reproductions.

Any cast wing is a bad sign. But especially cast wings that use an original as its base. Someone took what was likely an original wing, made a mold, and cast the insignia using a metal that I am almost 100% certain is not in fact sterling silver, made up wings, and then marked them STERLING. The addition of a British style pin and C catch does not especially lend itself to originality, IMHO. At its most basic, this wing is a reproduction of another wing under ANY circumstance. Thus, the next question is when was it made--I doubt it was made in the 40's and in fact suspect it is a lot more recent than that? Lots of these type of reproduction wings have been showing up over the years. I see similar wings with chaplain's crosses, the Star of David, skulls, rigger's "R", you name it. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif

Patrick



#50 101combatvet

101combatvet

    BANNED

  • Banned
    • Member ID: 1,494
  • 1,421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Quaters

Posted 17 February 2009 - 07:30 PM

It's real.... the Meyer hallmark is late 40's.

This is a master grade Para Glider wing that is hallmarked N.S. MEYERS NEW YORK with their shield but is clutch back. I once lost out on a pin back version of this wing that looked real. Any opinions on this wing.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users