Challenge coins

[ArtillaryMan]

Hi. There is a discussion on another board about legends of the Challenge coins. Seems hard to prove that they actually existed before 1980. Personally, with extensive experience in clubs and HQs, and traveling with a Medal of Honor recipient, I never saw or heard of them in the 1950s.

 

There is extensive info about them available, BUT did any of you actually know of any prior-to-1980 existance of them?

 

Dave

[48MMS]

I enlisted in the USAF in 1977 and never heard of them. So if they existed they were a better kept secret than the F-117A!

[Salvage Sailor]

Personally,

 

I never saw one until the late 1980's

[JBFloyd]

In my service time (USAF, 1969-1989), I saw one in use (by an Army officer). That was by a 5th SF lieutenant (with prior enlisted time) who attended the Air Force Targeting Officer's Course in early 1978. Other than that, nothing!

[Proud Kraut]

I was given this coin - in Germany - exactly 1980, so I assume they existed long before.

[oldfireguy]

Interesting. I always thought Rangers and SF had them during Vietnam. I never saw or heard of one when I was on active duty.

[hawkdriver]

In 1987, I went to OBC and was encourage to buy my challenge coin. It was a fairly new concept then, so I'm thinking that these are 80's items. These challenge coins were the predecessor to the coins given by officers and senior NCO's as on the spot appreciation gifts. They have in many cases replaced the Army Achievement Medal.

[grenadebaron]

Wikipedia Page on Challenge Coins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin

 

Like so many other aspects of military tradition, the origins of the challenge coin are a matter of much debate with little supporting evidence. While many organizations and services claim to have been the originators of the challenge coin, the most commonly held view is that the tradition began in the United States Army Air Service (a forerunner of the current United States Air Force).

 

Air warfare was a new phenomenon during World War I. When the army created flying squadrons they were manned with volunteer pilots from every walk of civilian life. While some of the early pilots came from working class or rural backgrounds, many were wealthy Ivy League students who withdrew from classes in the middle of the year, drawn by the adventure and romance of the new form of warfare.

 

As the legend goes,[2][1] one such Ivy Leaguer, a wealthy lieutenant, ordered small, solid-bronze medallions (or coins) struck, which he then presented to the other pilots in his squadron as mementos of their service together. The coin was gold-plated, bore the squadron’s insignia, and was quite valuable. One of the pilots in the squadron, who had never owned anything like the coin, placed it in a leather pouch he wore around his neck for safekeeping. A short while later, this pilot’s aircraft was heavily damaged by ground fire (other sources claim it was an aerial dogfight), forcing him to land behind enemy lines and allowing him to be captured by the Germans. The Germans confiscated the personal belongings from his pockets, but they didn’t catch the leather pouch around his neck. On his way to a permanent prisoner of war facility, he was held overnight in a small German-held French village near the front. During the night, the town was bombarded by the British, creating enough confusion to allow the pilot to escape.

 

The pilot avoided German patrols by donning civilian attire, but all of his identification had been confiscated so he had no way to prove his identity. With great difficulty, he sneaked across no-man’s land and made contact with a French patrol. Unfortunately for him, the French had been on the lookout for German saboteurs dressed as civilians. The French mistook the American pilot for a German saboteur and immediately prepared to execute him.

 

 

This challenge coin commemorates the imminent promotion of Marine Colonel Yurovich to CAG of CVW-9.Desperate to prove his allegiance and without any identification, the pilot pulled out the coin from his leather pouch and showed it to his French captors. One of the Frenchmen recognized the unit insignia on the coin and delayed the execution long enough to confirm the pilot’s identity.

 

Once the pilot safely returned to his squadron, it became a tradition for all members to carry their coin at all times. To ensure compliance, the pilots would challenge each other to produce the coin. If the challenged couldn’t produce the coin, he was required to buy a drink of choice for the challenger; if the challenged could produce the coin, the challenger would purchase the drink.

[Bluehawk]

Speaking for my experience, I never heard of anything like a coin in the USAF early-mid 1960s.

 

But, here's some amicus comment by a retired MSgt re: USAF tradition of "Challenge Coins" which I found very interesting:

 

"Challenge coins evolved from Korean aircrews . It identified the holder.

 

At one time you could walk into any Military Club and tap. You either drank for free or you bought a round.

 

When was the last time you were in a Consolidated, O or EM club, on base and tapped your coin and got any response other than 'what are you doing'?

 

Try a VFW, American Legion or AMVETS club and tap your challenge coin and see if you get a different response...

 

Challenge coins were just that; if you sit at my bar you better deserve it. Here is my challenge. If you cant match it, pay or move on.

 

ps. one time I got tapped at the Robins AFB (GA) O'Club and produced my 462 coin. I was staying at the Q's and could still walk home after many Weeds."

[J_Andrews]

They EXISTED in SF before 1976, and I believe as far back as the EARLY 1960's. In 1976 I was asked to design one for the 11th SFGA, USAR, and was shown an example from 7th SFGA. The proximate cause for this crisis was because either the Gp Cdr or his Dep had been challeneged in an SF club and wound up buying too many drinks. IIRC it was NOT made, because of expense (or lack of pre-sale order interest), but was prototyped.

[Plant#4]

In the 1930s, on capital ships at least, there were "coins" for the plank holders. I got to see one for the USS Louisville, but I did not get to photograph it, it was later sold on ebay. I believe one story refers the beginning of the challange coin to these Navy origins.

Although I like the story of the WW 1 pilot, I have never herd that before. ( Dosent mean it's not true though, I havent herd everything! ) My two cents, Dave

[grenadebaron]

here's one more story

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/coin.htm

 

According to another story, challenge coins originaged during the Vietnam War. Leisure time in Vietnam was a commodity, but when it came, it was utilized to the max; catching up on sleep; writing letters home; letting off steam at the hooch bar. The latter provided to be most popular, but eventually it too could become boring and mundane. To heighten excitement and foster unit esprit de corps, Bullet Clubs were formed. These were comprised of small, elite, front-line fighters who each carried a personalized bullet from the weapons they carried in combat. The ultimate use of the bullet, usually carried in a hip pocket, was to deny the enemy personal capture. When an individual entered the Hooch Bar, he would be challenged by fellow team members to produce his bullet. If he did, the challengers would pay his bar tab for the rest of the evening. If he failed to produce his bullet, he bought the drinks for all the remainder of the night. Eventually, personalized bullets took on disbelieving proportions. Some "teamies" took to carrying 20-, 40-, or 105mm cannon shells. Clearly, these were not personalized coup de grace munitions but rather manifestations of perceived individual prowess in combat or - perhaps - on R & R. At the height of the Bullet Club's heyday, it was not an uncommon sight to see strewn across a barroom table a very respectful representation of the full range of bullets, rockets, cannon and artillery shells used in Southeast Asia. In order to gain control of the situation - and to avoid accidental discharge of the large, fully functional munitions - bullets were traded for coins which reflected the unit's symbol and pride. Each coin was personalized by a controlled number and/or the individual's name. The rules remained the same, although today they are greatly expanded. Loss of one's coins was and remains tantamount to eternal disgrace and banishment. To forget to carry one's coin in anticipation of a challenge results in a minor death.

[Brian Keith]

We have a Korean War grouping from a 3rd ID noncom, in it is what I would call a challange coin. I haven't seen it for a while, but recall it is the size of a US 5 cent piece.

I'll make an effort to dig it out and post it if I can.

BKW

[101combatvet]

It was an SF thing..... no one else had them before 1980. After an article was written about them in Gung Ho magazine all the other units started to catch on and the concept was ruined. In SF they were almost a controled item if you will.... the early ones being numbered and the number was recorded to the soldier. I purchased my first SF coin for $3.00 and carried it everywhere I went. If you were challenged and didn't have it.... you better be ready to shell out the money on drinks. Nowadays they are handed out like candy.... thanks to the big Army where everyone earns a beret.

[vintageproductions]

Here is one we have that is Vietnam dated. It came out of a odd source to boot. This one belonged to my wife's Grandmother. It was given to her by a old time friend she had known since the 40's and was a career military person. This one is a 101st airborne from Vietnam. Engraved on the back is FERN 8-24-68 J.S. . Right now I can't remember who she said JS was but will have to check with her again.

 

[vintageproductions]

Here's the reverse.

 

[101combatvet]

Interesting, a very similar design is still used by the Divison today. I guess the question is what does the date really mean and when did she actually recieve it?

 

Here is one we have that is Vietnam dated. It came out of a odd source to boot. This one belonged to my wife's Grandmother. It was given to her by a old time friend she had known since the 40's and was a career military person. This one is a 101st airborne from Vietnam. Engraved on the back is FERN 8-24-68 J.S. . Right now I can't remember who she said JS was but will have to check with her again.

 

[vintageproductions]

It was given to her in 1968, not at a later date. She was drinking buddies with this guy and he sent it to her while he was in Vietnam.

[Abn Inf]

The 10th SF was the first Special Forces Unit to have a coin. Summer 1969. The original coins were numbered.

[vintageproductions]

Just spoke to my wife's Grandmother, and it definately became much more interesting. The initials J.S. stand for John Seney. He was in Headquarters 2/502nd in WWII, and in Vietnam he was the 101st's Assistant Corps Commander. He sent her the coin from Vietnam in 1968. She and her husband ( who was a WWII LST skipper at D-Day) were good friends of John & Sarah Seney for their whole lives.

[101combatvet]

Okay.... sounds good to me.... I guess the 101 was first again.

 

Just spoke to my wife's Grandmother, and it definately became much more interesting. The initials J.S. stand for John Seney. He was in Headquarters 2/502nd in WWII, and in Vietnam he was the 101st's Assistant Corps Commander. He sent her the coin from Vietnam in 1968. She and her husband ( who was a WWII LST skipper at D-Day) were good friends of John & Sarah Seney for their whole lives.

[101combatvet]

Old 101 Challenge Coin

 

another 101 Challenge Coin

 

Seems like they just crank them out as the thread goes along.

[Bsquirrely]

Well,

The OSS Detachment 101. While in Burma claim the first shot across the bow.

They used Silver coins (Austrian thaler, American silver dollar, Indian Silver rupee).

A quality control check for slug or fake/adulterated silver coins was to bounce them on the bar to hear the sound they made.

Evidently this was the thing needed to prove their worth in India and Burma.

The old hands kept the tradition up and the newbies had to by the drinks for the old hands.

according to Jack Kornfield (pre Vietnam 10th Group) this was the tradition and he didn't see the other coins until stateside.

The first coin he laid eyes upon was at the PX at Bragg around 1976, he forgot what was on it.

 

(by the way he laughed and asked,why the hell I wanted to know about some dam coin anyways)

[78th Collector]

I was in US Army 1989-1993 and never saw or heard of a challenge coin. I was not in SF or Airborne so maybe that explains my lack of knowledge. Concept must have taken off during OIF as it seems every unit out there has one now.

[jim2]

Here are the only 2 I have. They came in a grouping of a Vietnam vet who served with the 1st Cavalry & later with the 82nd and retired in the late 80's early 90's. They are both engraved with his initials, but the 82nd coin has the inscription wrong. one has a date on it of 1982, and one is dated 1981. while I was looking closely at the coins I noticed both were numbered on the rim.

 

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