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WW1 US Firearms


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#1 cwnorma

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 02:19 PM

All,

I am working on building a complete list of all WW1 Handguns and Rifles. What I am trying to do is have an exhaustive list as eventually I would like to incorporate it into something like "Lord's CW Enclyclopedia" but on WW1. Naturally, this is open to interpretation as I have drawn my criteria at official and semi-official firearms. A bit like Norm Flayderman's Primary and Secondary Martial categories. An artificial distinction to be sure, but if one were to arbitrarily say that any gun that any doughboy might have used were the criteria, then Grandpa's Owl's Head .32 that he snuck in his duffle bag could count. I had to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

Anyway, here is the list. I request feedback. If you disagree with something being included, want to know why I included it, or think I missed something, please let me know.

1. Handguns

1.1. .38 Caliber Service Revolvers
1.1.1. M1892 Colt, DA Army
1.1.2. M1894 Colt, DA Army
1.1.3. M1895 Colt, DA Army
1.1.4. M1896 Colt, DA Army
1.1.5. M1901 Colt, DA Army
1.1.6. M1903 Colt, DA Army
1.1.7. M1889 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.8. M1892 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.9. M1894 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.10. M1895 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.11. M1896 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.12. M1894 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.13. M1901 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.14. M1902 S&W, DA Navy
1.1.15. M1905 Colt, DA USMC

1.2. .45 Caliber Service Revolvers
1.2.1. M1890 Colt, SA Army (Artillery Model--Still in use by Coast Artillery units)
1.2.2. M1902 Colt, DA Army (Phillipine/Alaskan Still in use in the PI)
1.2.3. M1909 Colt, DA Army
1.2.4. M1909 Colt, DA Navy
1.2.5. M1909 Colt, DA USMC
1.2.6. M1917 Colt, DA Army
1.2.7. M1917 S&W, DA Army

1.3. .38 Caliber Service Automatics
1.3.1. M1900 Colt, Army
1.3.2. M1902 Colt, Army

1.4. .45 Caliber Service Automatics
1.4.1. M1905 (1907 Contract) Colt, Army
1.4.2. M1911 Colt, Army
1.4.3. M1911 Colt, Navy
1.4.4. M1911 Colt, USMC*
1.4.5. M1911 Springfield, Army
1.4.6. M1911 Remington UMC, Army
1.4.7. M1911 North American Arms, Army

* Supposedly never made, but they do show up.

1.5. Foreign Service Revolvers Used by AEF Troops
1.5.1. Mk IV Webley (AEF Siberia, ANREF, Troops in line with BEF)
1.5.2. M1892 St Etienne (369-372 Infantry)

2. Service Long Arms

2.1. U.S. Rifles
2.1.1. M1898 Krag-Jorgenson, Springfield (13-18 Engineers, Training Stateside)
2.1.2. M1903 Springfield
2.1.2.1. M1903 Springfield basic rifle
2.1.2.1. M1903 Springfield Sniper Rifle
2.1.2.2. M1903 Stripped for Air Service
2.1.3. M1903 Rock Island
2.1.4. M1917 Eddystone
2.1.5. M1917 Winchester
2.1.6. M1917 Remington
2.1.7. M1906 Fencing Musket Springfield
2.1.8. M1888 Trapdoor Rifle Springfield (US Guards, Baltimore Dept Public Safety)
2.1.9. Winchester M1894 (Signal Corps Spruce Battalions)

2.2. Carbines
2.2.1. M1899 Carbine Modified (Phillipine Constabulary)
2.2.2. M1998/9 Carbine (State cavalry units)

2.3. Trench/Riot Guns
2.3.1. M1917 Winchester (M97)
2.3.1.1. Trench Gun
2.3.1.2. Riot Gun
2.3.2. M1917 Remington (M10)
2.3.2.1. Trench Gun
2.3.2.2. Riot Gun
2.3.3. Winchester M12**

** Possibly only prototypes

2.4. Foreign Service Rifles Used by AEF Troops
2.4.1. MkIII* SMLE (Troops in line with BEF)
2.4.2. M1907/15/16 Berthier (369-372 Infantry)
2.4.3. M1916 Moisin Nagant (ANREF, US Guards)
2.4.3.1. M1916 Remington
2.4.3.2. M1916 Westinghouse
2.4.4. M1905 Ross (AEF training, US Guards)

3. Miscelleneous

3.1. Flare Guns
3.1.1. MkIII Remington
3.1.2. MkIV
3.1.2.1. A.H. Fox Gun Company
3.1.2.2. Scott and Fetzer
3.1.2.3. French manufacture (still need exact company)

Specifically as to the .38 caliber revolvers, although officially obsolete, Springfield Armory had an ongoing program to upgrade all of them to the current standards as late as 1910. Quite a few of these show up re-arsennaled with RAC (Rinaldo A. Carr) as the inspector. The same is true for the Artillery Model SAA. In 1917 there was an acute shortage of .45 Caliber handguns, so Springfield made the large stockpiles of .38 caliber handguns available for purchase by military Officers and NCOs through the Post Quartermaster.

Some really obsolete guns such as the M1888 trapdoor were used in a very limited fashion, and only very early in 1917. The Baltimore Committee of Public Safety purchased them to arm their uniformed militia. Some US Guards guarding the New York Aqueduct system reportedly carried Trapdoors in early 1917 as well. The Krag Carbines were still being used by non-federalized cavalry units in western states as late as the 1920s! Finally, the 1899 Krag Phillipine Constabulary rifle was still in active service along with the M1902 Phillipine/Alaskan revolver in the Phillipines during the war.

I am still up in the air as to whether or not to include the Mark 1 Springfield and Pederson device. It certainly was in production in 1918, and at least one went to France, but I really see it as a post war piece. Opinions?

If anyone has any comments I would be happy to hear them!

Thanks!

Oh, and here are some of my guns:
handguns1.jpg
M1901 Colt Navy
M1903 Colt Army
M1901 Colt Army
M1902 S&W Navy
M1892 St Etienne

handguns2.jpg
M1917 S&W Army
M1917 Colt Army
M1909 Colt Army

handguns3.jpg
M1911 Springfield Army
M1911 Colt Army
M1911 Colt Army (Shipped to USMC)

flareguns.jpg
Remington MkIII
French made MkIV

Chris

#2 cwnorma

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 02:24 PM

A few Longarms
longguns.jpg
Left to Right: M1916 Westinghouse, M1916 Remington, M1916 Berthier, M1917 Winchester, M1917 Remington, MkIII* SMLE, M1903 Rock Island, M1903 Springfield, M1905 Ross

Chris

#3 Charlie Flick

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Posted 11 March 2007 - 04:00 PM

Hi Chris:

This is an interesting project you have undertaken. And you have a very impressive collection that covers a lot of your list.

Since you have asked for input allow me to offer a few comments. I will confine this for now to your handgun section only as I am pressed for time. I will address the other sections later on.

Under 1.1. .38 Caliber Service Revolvers you omitted:

Model 1899 Smith & Wesson Army
Model 1899 Smith & Wesson Navy

You listed the following Navy revolvers. I don't believe that any Navy models exist other than the Model 1889 and the Model 1895. (I am excluding the civilian Colts that were named the "New Navy", as these were not military issued arms.)

1.1.8 M1892 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.9. M1894 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.11. M1896 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.12. M1894 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.13. M1901 Colt, DA Navy

For reference on the Double Action .38 Colts I recommend Bob Best's "A Study Of Colt's New Army and Navy Pattern DA Revolvers". (2004)

Under the .45 Revolvers, you mention the "M1890 Colt, SA Army". I am not familiar with the M1890. Is your reference here to the Model 1873 Colt Single Action Army Models that were rebuilt and rebarreled?

Under .45 Automatics you list "1.4.4. M1911 Colt, USMC", noting that "Supposedly never made, but they do show up." I have to differ with you here. There were no M1911 .45 pistols that were marked USMC or Marine Corps or anything similar. Of course, the Marines were armed with the M1911 but these were either the pre-war Navy marked guns or those marked Model of 1911 US Army. For reference I would point to the Charles Clawson's "Colt .45 Service Pistols". While USMC marked pistols have surfaced from time to time, they are regarded as fakes in the M1911 collecting community.

That is all I can comment on now as I have to run. I will have more later. Good luck with the project.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

#4 cwnorma

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 08:33 PM

Charlie,

Thanks! You have given me some homework to do, I already know where one of my errors came from, but Ill get back to you this weekend with more thoughts!

Thanks again!

Chris


Hi Chris:

This is an interesting project you have undertaken.
<snip>
Regards,
Charlie Flick



#5 Gil Sanow

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 10:38 AM

Charlie,

Thanks! You have given me some homework to do, I already know where one of my errors came from, but Ill get back to you this weekend with more thoughts!

Thanks again!

Chris


You listed the M1902 .38 Colt autos above. Are these the ancestor of the .32 & .380 cal. General Officer pistols of WW2 and later era? If so, are there any special markings to look for? ("U.S. Property"?)

I had never heard of these in WW1 service.

#6 DevilDan1900

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 05:46 PM

I've always had an affinity for the M1902 Colts. They are actually the precursor to the M1911 Colt .45s and look very similar. The .38s were found to have rather insufficient stopping power among other things, and so were bumped up to .45 cal. for the M1911. They look very similar, with a slide action, but with a longer barrel. I've always thought it makes them look like something from the old comic books, like The Shadow or something.

Edited by DevilDan1900, 17 March 2007 - 05:46 PM.


#7 DevilDan1900

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 05:53 PM

Here's a shot of one of the military model Colt M1902 automatics I found on the web. This particular example was made in 1907, so it is definately very likely they saw action in the War. Notice the length, as opposed to the .45. A really neat weapon.

***COLLECTOR NOTE***
All collectors should note that the individual who initially started this post has been banned and his posts are now being reviewed for authenticity.

Our main interest at USMF is making sure collectors are aware and can learn about period pieces. And, having non-original pieces as guides does a disservice to all. The administration encourages members having detailed information regarding the item being a fake, reproduction, and/or put together to come forward and post it here or in other threads.

For more information regarding the user “DevilDan1900” and the cause for this review, please see below link:
http://www.usmilitar...showtopic=15227

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Edited by ADMIN, 03 February 2008 - 02:39 PM.
Added investigation note.


#8 cwnorma

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 01:59 PM

Charlie,

lets see if I can address each of your comments:

Under 1.1. .38 Caliber Service Revolvers you omitted:

Model 1899 Smith & Wesson Army
Model 1899 Smith & Wesson Navy

You listed the following Navy revolvers. I don't believe that any Navy models exist other than the Model 1889 and the Model 1895. (I am excluding the civilian Colts that were named the "New Navy", as these were not military issued arms.)

1.1.8 M1892 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.9. M1894 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.11. M1896 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.12. M1894 Colt, DA Navy
1.1.13. M1901 Colt, DA Navy

For reference on the Double Action .38 Colts I recommend Bob Best's "A Study Of Colt's New Army and Navy Pattern DA Revolvers". (2004)


I believe you are correct, I went back and looked at where I had gotten those model numbers from. All of them are .38 caliber Colt "New Army and Navy Revolvers" as you say, but I mistook that the Navy bought them all along, changing the model number as Colt did, the way the Army did. Instead, it seems the Navy only made two purchases of .38s from Colt, the M1889, and the M1895.

You are of course also correct about the M1899 S/W revolvers.

I will modify the list.

Under the .45 Revolvers, you mention the "M1890 Colt, SA Army". I am not familiar with the M1890. Is your reference here to the Model 1873 Colt Single Action Army Models that were rebuilt and rebarreled?


Yes. The Colt SAA, originally M1873 rebarreled with a 5 1/2 inch barrel, in this case, inspected by Rinaldo Carr between 1890 and 1909. But I can't for the life of me find the source for the Model 1890 designation... I promise I didn't make it up, I'll post my source when I can find it.

Under .45 Automatics you list "1.4.4. M1911 Colt, USMC", noting that "Supposedly never made, but they do show up." I have to differ with you here. There were no M1911 .45 pistols that were marked USMC or Marine Corps or anything similar. Of course, the Marines were armed with the M1911 but these were either the pre-war Navy marked guns or those marked Model of 1911 US Army. For reference I would point to the Charles Clawson's "Colt .45 Service Pistols". While USMC marked pistols have surfaced from time to time, they are regarded as fakes in the M1911 collecting community.


Charlie, I'm tracking with you here. I know that they were never made by Colt, and so to the Colt community, they are fakes, because in that particular rarefied world, anything altered after it left the factory is a fake. But they do show up, and there is a pistol in the Annapolis museum in Washington DC that belonged to LeJune, and it has this marking. I have seen several of them, and they all appear to be made using the same die to strike the "Model of 1911 U.S.M.C." I wasn't able to handle the Lejune pistol, but the two others I saw were identical. Both that I did have a chance to examine fell squarely in the "shipped to USMC" serial number ranges. I don't doubt that Colt never made them, and the Marines never ordered them, but I suspect, that a few were made, perhaps at the behest of Marine officers, most likely by a USMC armorer. At the very least they were made by someone with quite outstanding gunsmithing skills, and access to die making tools and a cold steel press. So are they fakes? Well, to a Colt collector, probably yes. I guess the question is exactly when were they modified? 1911 or 1971?

So perhaps as at best an un-official gun, it doesn't belong in the list.

Thanks for your comments.

Chris

#9 copdoc

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 07:08 PM

Chris
Nice collection and worthy project. It thought about it for a while as you have a very compleat list. I have wondered if the M1907 Winchester 351 SLR (some with the bayonet lug) were used by the AEF. I have read it they were bought by the French Air Service.

#10 Allan H.

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Posted 21 March 2007 - 10:15 AM

Chris,
Have you considered the Winchester "Winder" muskets that came in both model 1885 and 1887? Also, IIRC, Winchester made a Model 1903 that like the Winders, was a .22 caliber training rifle. I know I have seen Winders and the M1903 Winchesters with US Ordnance stamps.
Alan

#11 HelmetGuy

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 02:27 PM

Interesting thread, you have a great collection.

Yes. The Colt SAA, originally M1873 rebarreled with a 5 1/2 inch barrel, in this case, inspected by Rinaldo Carr between 1890 and 1909. But I can't for the life of me find the source for the Model 1890 designation... I promise I didn't make it up, I'll post my source when I can find it.


This should read 1895 - 1903. They might have been altering them after '03 (not by Colt though), but I know of no documentation to support that.

Also, for your list. There were 800 Colt SAA's during the 1895 refurbishment/alteration that retained their 7 1/2" barrels and were for and issued to the New York Militia. No doubt some of these were used and I know of one that was sold as part of a grouping of an AEF Officer.
The serial numbers of these Colts are known and of course they are very scarce, especially considering that some were later altered to 5 1/2" barrel length.

First Battery, N.Y.:

Posted Image

Posted Image

"Artillery", Colt refurbishment in 1902 (therefore, all mixed numbers), RAC marked on bottom of grips:

Posted Image

The above pieces are from my collection and are original.

Jared

#12 kwill

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 02:15 PM

I would like to offer a couple of comments regarding M1911/M1911A1 pistols. First, I have a letter dated 1 July 1976 from Brig. Gen. E.H. Simmons, Director of Marine Corps History and Museums in which he states that the pistols belonging to Generals John A. LeJeune and Oliver P. Smith are marked "U. S. Army" NOT U.S.M.C. He also says that in the opinion of his deputy Colonel Brooke Nihart, no authentic U.S.M.C. pistol exists.

Secondly, most M1911 collectors would probably not include the NAA on your list. None were ever accepted by the Ordnance Dept and none were ever issued.

Regards,
Kevin Williams

#13 cwnorma

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 05:18 PM

Kevin,

I don't dispute your letter, however, the pistol in the collection of the Annapolis museum which they purport to have been Lejune's is marked this way. Somebody made it. Maybe somebody sold Annapolis a bill of goods? It wouldn't be the first time.

I agree that Colt never made them. But I am not a 1911 collector, I am a WW1 collector. Unfortunately, for me, I have seen three of them, and examined two. What I want to know is who made them and when? These dang things have been floating around on the collectors market for at least 40 years.

This however is trying to be a list of WW1 firearms. If someone can prove to me that these USMC marked 1911s were modified after 1918, it will come off the list. Untill then, maybe I'll mark it with a star for the controversy...

The NAA 1911 is included because it came from a Wartime contract. I include it for the same reason I would include a Henry Disston Mk 1 Trench Knife in a WW1 collection. Even though it is certain that none of those ever made it out of Disston's factory. Yet I feel they belong in a WW1 collection. Same with the North American Arms 1911s.

Thanks for your comments.

Chris



I would like to offer a couple of comments regarding M1911/M1911A1 pistols. First, I have a letter dated 1 July 1976 from Brig. Gen. E.H. Simmons, Director of Marine Corps History and Museums in which he states that the pistols belonging to Generals John A. LeJeune and Oliver P. Smith are marked "U. S. Army" NOT U.S.M.C. He also says that in the opinion of his deputy Colonel Brooke Nihart, no authentic U.S.M.C. pistol exists.

Secondly, most M1911 collectors would probably not include the NAA on your list. None were ever accepted by the Ordnance Dept and none were ever issued.

Regards,
Kevin Williams



#14 VolunteerArmoury

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 08:29 AM

When you mentioned:

2.1. U.S. Rifles
2.1.1. M1898 Krag-Jorgenson, Springfield (13-18 Engineers, Training Stateside)

Was that referring 13th thru 18th Engineer Companies?

#15 cwnorma

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 12:08 PM

When you mentioned:

2.1. U.S. Rifles
2.1.1. M1898 Krag-Jorgenson, Springfield (13-18 Engineers, Training Stateside)

Was that referring 13th thru 18th Engineer Companies?



Although I can't say for certain, I was always under the impression that they were Regiments...

Usually the Army used letter designations (A,B,S, etc) for companies.

BTW, some references (Canfield et al) list the 10-19 Engineers (Railroad) as going to France in 1917 armed with Krag Jorgenson rifles.

Chris


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