Paye & Baker of N. Attleboro, MA: examples and patterns

[Jack's Son]

This is an extremely rare example of a World War I United States Air Service pilot wing that is encountered fairly regularly, but almost never with the rare Paye & Baker maker mark. The raised mark, 3 hearts with “P” “&” and “B” inside them, is the Maker Mark of Paye & Baker Manufacturing Company of North Attleboro, Massachusetts. I have only seen one other example of this wing with this hallmark on it. The wing is sterling silver with solid gold applied lettering.

 

 

[Jack's Son]

 

 

[manayunkman]

Very nice wing.

 

Thanks for posting it.

[pconrad02]

But you're not at "wing guy" ................ !! Interesting that it has the Tiffany style clasp. Beautiful piece

[Jack's Son]

But you're not at "wing guy" ................ !!

 

I'm only pretending to fly!!

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Really nice mark. Never seen it before. Thanks.

[ludwigh1980]

Wonderful piece, thanks for sharing

 

Terry

[tomcatter]

Very nice wings!

[pfrost]

This is a very interesting wing. This pattern wing was described in Campbell's book as being gracefully curved ("like an archer's bow"). I believe that Cliff has posted an example of that particular wing on Bob Schwartz' site. http://www.ww2wings....yunknown7.shtml

 

On the other hand, this particular pattern has been well faked over the years. We had a pretty good discussion of that wing on this thread http://www.usmilitar...e__st__20 with some more specific discussion around post 20 to 30 or so.

 

Many of what I believe the fakes of this pattern wing have a Meyer and Wenthe Chicago hallmark. I know that I have been seeing the Meyer and Wenthe wings around for years and years.

 

A few years ago, some of this wing pattern showed up on ebay as part of an ID'd WWI pilot estate. I believe Ron Burkey has those particular wings on sale at his webpage that he calls a Meyer and Wenthe wing (but it doesn't seem to be hallmarked).

 

http://www.flyingtig...gory_Code=03afw

 

Then sometime last year, a Paye and Baker example of this wing also showed up on eBay (either this same wing or another example, not sure which). I watched it, but the price was more than I could afford at the time.

 

The interesting things about these wings is that they are not all hallmarked, and they don't all have the vaulting described by Campbell. But it seems that all the "good" wings seem to have the Tiffany-style catch. The fake Meyer and Wenthe (IIRC) all have either a more traditional catch or the "C" style catch. One other thing to notice is that the "US" is not a nice wonderfully artistic and balanced bit of workmanship. Also, the details in the stars and pales of the shield can be a little soft. Sometimes you hear people dismiss a WWI wing because the US is of poor workmanship.... but that is not always a good idea!

 

In my collection, I picked up this pattern wing a number of years ago. The one I have was attached to an old canvas-style wallet that was full of RFC and USAS vintage aviation training manuals. The wing had been on the wallet for some time and the catch was corroded to the point that it was almost impossible to open. I don't know if mine is a fake or not, I do tend to go back and forth on them--some days I am convinced they are fakes, other days, I am convinced they are vintage.

 

Here is a photo of my wing. The patina on mine is not an age patina and some of the blemishes are from dirt on the wing. In fact, it looks more like the color of the wing is due to "bronzing"; similar to what was used to color WWI collar insignia. But all the other characteristics are the same. It has an unknown stylized "HR" hallmark.

 

From my experience, this wing patterns (up to a few years ago), was treated like a "red headed step child", as none of the "big" collectors and dealers seemed to care much for them. Russ and I have had a few discussions about this pattern wing over the years and it always seemed that this was a wing that was going to be controversial. I believe that that was due to all the Meyer and Wenthe fakes that most people were seeing. Now, with a couple of better examples and this new discovery of the Paye and Baker marked wing, this previously maligned pattern seems to be making a comeback.

 

All in all, kind of an interesting evolution.

 

Patrick

[Costa]

super nice wing--- i like it!

[CliffP]

Then sometime last year, a Paye and Baker example of this wing also showed up on eBay (either this same wing or another example, not sure which). I watched it, but the price was more than I could afford at the time.

 

Now, with a couple of better examples and this new discovery of the Paye and Baker marked wing, this previously maligned pattern seems to be making a comeback.

 

 

Patrick & Robin,

 

The wing badge with the Paye & Baker trademark pictured at the top of this thread is the very same badge that was sold on eBay back in April 2012; therefore, this must make it the only currently known example with a P&B trademark that has ever surfaced. Needless to say, I like it.

 

The interesting things about these wings is that they are not all hallmarked, and they don't all have the vaulting described by Campbell. But it seems that all the "good" wings seem to have the Tiffany-style catch.

 

 

That is another good point made by Patrick.

 

Except for the badge with the P&B trademark pictured about, I also suspect that all others found without a trademark probably should have a Tiffany-style catch. . . but not all of them need to be vaulted. A prime example would be the *Military Aviator (MA) style badge posted below. It too has a Tiffany-style catch and is marked STERLING on its back and the back of the star above the center shield. This badge was purchased by "Colonel" Springs in 1919 after coming home from the war and has never left the family.

 

Cliff

 

*Note that Elliott White Springs was one of a few World War 1 veterans granted Military Aviator (MA) status after WW1 by an Act of Congress.

[Jack's Son]

Patrick and Cliff,

 

Thank you both for adding so much insight and information about this particular wing, and wing style in general.

[blind pew]

Does anyone know what are the specific differences between a Paye & Baker and a Meyer & Wenthe wing? They look pretty damn close to me. Is this a situation in which the wings were stamped by one company and then sold to another? Or are there distinct differences?

 

Also, with regards to both those makers, are there any clues to help differentiate the fakes from original wings? I understand that this type of wing has been highly faked.

 

Thanks!

[pfrost]

Others may disagree with me but I believe that ALL the Meyer & Wenthe wings are fakes. I also am very suspect that the Paye & Baker hallmark is a fantasy. But I could be wrong. This pattern wing is heavily faked

[blind pew]

wowser- so you believe that the Paye&Baker wings are just fake Meyer & Wenthe wings with an additional fake hallmark to create another "maker"?

 

what is the basis for the Meyer and Wenthe and Paye and Baker wings being fakes? You are a very detailed, experienced collector, so your views on this are quite valuable.

 

Who do you think made these types of wings?

Others may disagree with me but I believe that ALL the Meyer & Wenthe wings are fakes. I also am very suspect that the Paye & Baker hallmark is a fantasy. But I could be wrong. This pattern wing is heavily faked

[CliffP]

Does anyone know what are the specific differences between a Paye & Baker and a Meyer & Wenthe wing? They look pretty damn close to me. Is this a situation in which the wings were stamped by one company and then sold to another? Or are there distinct differences?

 

Also, with regards to both those makers, are there any clues to help differentiate the fakes from original wings? I understand that this type of wing has been highly faked.

 

Thanks!

 

Hummm, it would be interesting to see examples of a badge made by Paye & Baker and one made by Meyer & Wenthe.

 

Also an example of what a Paye & Baker hallmark might look like since I can't recall ever having seen one.

 

[blind pew]

The wings appear essentially identical to me. There is a thread on wings on this site that shows the P&B hallmark. That led to a debate as to whether the hallmark itself was good or not.

 

 

 

On 1/31/2020 at 12:48 PM, CliffP said:

 

Hummm, it would be interesting to see examples of a badge made by Paye & Baker and one made by Meyer & Wenthe.

 

Also an example of what a Paye & Baker hallmark might look like since I can't recall ever having seen one.

[pfrost]

Hey Cliff, its been a while since you availed us of your great erudition on wings!

 

So, Tom, If you do a search for this pattern wing on this forum you will find a number of threads. Basically, there are a ton of fakes (most unmarked or just marked STERLING), some marked with the Meyer & Wenthe Chicago (almost all of which I have ever seen looking to be fakes), ONE Paye and Baker marked wing and a few rare others that I have seen that I believe is good.

 

Of all the "good" ones I have seen, they have a nice finish and use the Tiffany-style catch (yes, I know it isn't called the Tiffany catch, but I forgot what it is usually called....).

 

First the sterling marked ones. There are a large number of cast "museum copies" out there that are offered for sale. They are cast, have poor detail and "regular-style" findings. Not that tricky an item to spot.

 

Then, there are Meyer and Wenthe Chicago marked wings. I suspect that the hallmarks were added to the reproduction-quality wings at some point during their life span. Who put them there... or when.... I got no idea.

 

Meyer and Wenthe was making badges and such from the 1900-1950's, especially police badges. Here is a hallmark that I suspect is correct.

 

It is possible that Meyer and Wenthe made pilot wings in WWI. They were around and they made similar things (police and fireman badges). However, the fonts always seem wrong, the catch and findings are wrong, the detail on the wings are wrong....

So, in my opinion, Meyer and Wenthe wings (at least all the ones I have seen) would not be something I would want in my collection.

[pfrost]

I did find some wings attached to a canvas wallet with some RAF and WWI books. Ive never really been happy with these wings, but here they are. They are bronzed and have the wrong catch. They sit in the "special" wing case and don't hang out with the other WWI pilot wings. LOL

[pfrost]

So, that covers what I think some of the fakes are, what about the good ones. I have studied a few in collections, and I don't recall seeing any hallmarks. However, as described in Campbell's book, the ones I have seen are nicely vaulted to give them an interesting 3-D look. Here is one from Cliff's collection that he posted some time ago on this thread (http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/165366-wwi-paye-baker-wings/?hl=paye).

 

It has the right catch, but no hallmark.

 

On that same thread, Jack's Son (who I believe has left us), posted his hallmarked Paye & Baker wing. Again, the wing had the right catch.

 

So my feeling is that this wing is a good one, and thus probably the company that made these wings. P&B is a well known silver company.

 

One thing to notice (and this was discussed in a previous thread about Dunham wings, is that the hallmark on the "fake" M&W wings always seem clunky, unrefined, and poorly struck. In contrast, "real" vintage hallmarks always seem to be crisp, refined and well done. It isn't always this way, but it does some to be true more often than not.

 

For my collecting strategies for these pattern of wings, I always look first for the correct catch first.

P

 

 

[blind pew]

Thanks for that very detailed response!

I have one of those wings (I am a novice) purchased from a well known dealer. The wings are vaulted and have the appearance of a bow (from a bow and arrow) as Campbell describes. Looking at them with a jeweler's loop, they look every bit as detailed as Haltom, and Drehr & Sons wings that I have, which are pretty nicely done.

However, I don't know much and have about 1/1,000th the knowledge about wings that you have, so it is very valuable to hear the opinion of someone who has been collecting these for decades and has seen many, many different kinds of wings.

When I look at the WW2 Meyer and Wenthe wings posted on this site, the pieces look very muted and with poor detail (as I would expect from a fake). Are the ones that are presumed fake of the WW1 era not "bowed" or vaulted?

When did you start to see all the fake WW1 wings? That, of course, is highly suspicious, and suggests that someone was making them and leaking them to collectors through bad dealers and shows. That's how they work in the higher end german WW2 fakes.

Thanks again for the input!

 

 

So, that covers what I think some of the fakes are, what about the good ones. I have studied a few in collections, and I don't recall seeing any hallmarks. However, as described in Campbell's book, the ones I have seen are nicely vaulted to give them an interesting 3-D look. Here is one from Cliff's collection that he posted some time ago on this thread (http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/165366-wwi-paye-baker-wings/?hl=paye).

 

It has the right catch, but no hallmark.

 

On that same thread, Jack's Son (who I believe has left us), posted his hallmarked Paye & Baker wing. Again, the wing had the right catch.

 

So my feeling is that this wing is a good one, and thus probably the company that made these wings. P&B is a well known silver company.

 

One thing to notice (and this was discussed in a previous thread about Dunham wings, is that the hallmark on the "fake" M&W wings always seem clunky, unrefined, and poorly struck. In contrast, "real" vintage hallmarks always seem to be crisp, refined and well done. It isn't always this way, but it does some to be true more often than not.

 

For my collecting strategies for these pattern of wings, I always look first for the correct catch first.

P

 

 

 

[blind pew]

whoops! That is the ebay Einstadt wings I was hoping guys would look at. Here is the Paye and Baker thread:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/165366-wwi-paye-baker-wings/?hl=%2Bpaye+%2Band+%2Bbaker

 

 

 

When I pull up the link you provided above it shows a Dallas style wing badge.

 

[cwnorma]

All,

 

IMHO, "Meyer and Wenthe" marked WW1 Air Service badges all bear suspicion.

 

In part because it is very difficult to fake a raised hallmark without substantial equipment. Should any one find a Paye and Baker hallmarked badge with a RAISED hallmark; I would humbly suggest considering adding it to your collection.

 

Like Patrick, when evaluating these I look for:

 

- Die strike. Must be sharp and crisp. Back should be flat and smooth with no signs of casting flaws

 

- US. Must be gold. Somewhat thin. The shape of the US is also specific; the maker used a so-called "worm font" (each letter sort of looks like a snake or worm--an Art Nouveau, naturalistic font used by Paye and Baker in other applications as well). The font of the US on good badges is a distinctive "tell" when you have looked at many of these.

 

- Catch. Tiffany (actually manufactured by Blancard) catch.

 

- Finish. Many of these badges have (or exhibit the remains of) a platinum, palladium, or rhodium finish (also commonly used in sterling silver cutlery making)

 

- Vaulting. Normally bent into an "archer's bow shape" (there are however flat versions known). I have seen at least one that shows evidence of having been "flattened as well.

 

A word about fakes. The die for this badge was owned up to about the 1990s by an Arizona company that made and sold re-strike "Old West" police/sheriff badges. I suspect most of the; "Meyer and Wenthe" marked, die struck badges found their origin there. When that company went defunct the die seems to have disappeared. At least one person also made cast copies.

 

 

[blind pew]

What about those ww1 wings NOT marked "Meyer & Wenthe" and just "sterling"?

 

Again, these types appear to be die struck, bowed , and of very high quality.

All,

 

IMHO, "Meyer and Wenthe" marked WW1 Air Service badges all bear suspicion.

 

In part because it is very difficult to fake a raised hallmark without substantial equipment. Should any one find a Paye and Baker hallmarked badge with a RAISED hallmark; I would humbly suggest considering adding it to your collection.

 

Like Patrick, when evaluating these I look for:

 

- Die strike. Must be sharp and crisp. Back should be flat and smooth with no signs of casting flaws

 

- US. Must be gold. Somewhat thin. The shape of the US is also specific; the maker used a so-called "worm font" (each letter sort of looks like a snake or worm--an Art Nouveau, naturalistic font used by Paye and Baker in other applications as well). The font of the US on good badges is a distinctive "tell" when you have looked at many of these.

 

- Catch. Tiffany (actually manufactured by Blancard) catch.

 

- Finish. Many of these badges have (or exhibit the remains of) a platinum, palladium, or rhodium finish (also commonly used in sterling silver cutlery making)

 

- Vaulting. Normally bent into an "archer's bow shape" (there are however flat versions known). I have seen at least one that shows evidence of having been "flattened as well.

 

A word about fakes. The die for this badge was owned up to about the 1990s by an Arizona company that made and sold re-strike "Old West" police/sheriff badges. I suspect most of the; "Meyer and Wenthe" marked, die struck badges found their origin there. When that company went defunct the die seems to have disappeared. At least one person also made cast copies.

 

 

 

[cwnorma]

What about those ww1 wings NOT marked "Meyer & Wenthe" and just "sterling"?

 

Again, these types appear to be die struck, bowed , and of very high quality.

 

Most are not hall-marked, only content marked "STERLING." I only know of two wings that bear the Paye and Baker hallmark. Paye and Baker marked ones are quite rare, and thus my suggestion of grabbing one should a collector actually find one.

 

Everything else above about evaluating these badges applies to the "STERLING" marked versions as well.

 

Best wishes!

 

Chris