Signal Corps Machetes and LC-14-B Woodsman Pal Blades

[Charlie Flick]

Great stuff, Robin and Dustin, as usual.

 

Below is one of the LC-14-Bs in my collection.

 

 

My example is marked on the guard just as Robin's is. However, my blade marking is somewhat different in that it says PAT APPL'D FOR rather than having the Patent Number on it as does Robin's. I presume that means it is an earlier production version.

 

 

Dustin, on your question about scabbards with the distinctive USMC double hook, I can't remember now whether I have run across one of those or not.

 

These are neat blades. I think that versions of them were in use right up through Vietnam.

 

Regards,

Charlie

[sactroop]

Another great thread! Thanks to all.

[dustin]

I would agre Charlie, an earlier production. The patent was applied for 11 December 1942, patent was awarded 30 November 1943. I think it was safe to assume yours was made between those dates and Robin's made after November 1943. Then you have his other blade with a Trade Mark, perhaps later yet? When did the Signal Corps stop purchasing them? I wonder.

When I was doing a quick search I found a thread illustrating a Woodsman with 281 stamped on the guard and a manual citing No.281 as well. What does the number sequence of 280, 281 and 284 mean? May I assume they made a change in the production line and to denote that in records they assigned a new number. 280 is original pattern, 281 without LC-14-B and 284 with new Trade Mark stamping.

 

[dustin]

In an auction listing it states: 280 on blade and 281 on guard. Ugh, it keeps getting odd.

 

For auction is a WOODMAN'S PAL Survival Machete with Metal Sheath! Made by Victor Tool Co. - Reading, PA. Trade Mark - Patent# 2335497 Blade is marked 280, and the hand guard is marked 281.

 

[pararaftanr2]

I'm lucky to have the factory manuals from 1944 and 1945, the 1944 version (actually a catalog and manual) being more extensive and including 17 color illustrations. In addition to their LC-14-B, the 1944 manual illustrates 14 commercial models that were in production. The catalog states the LC-14-B was available to the Army, Navy, USMC and Army Air Force and the Army Post Exchanges, although I can't confirm that.

 

As for the "280" and "281", Victor Tool had an extensive number system used to identify the various component options for their knives, to include type of grip, blade thickness, blade finish, sheath material and lenght of sheath to match length of grip. A "280" would have a "short leather safety grip", a blade that was "heavy weight, 8/64" " and a "service finish" that was "machine polished". The model "281" differed by having a "deluxe hand polished" finish and "honed cutting edges" rather than the service finish. The "281" is shown as a commercial model, with the aforementioned special finish, "bands of colored lamination" in the leather grip and the option of having the owner's name engraved on the blade.

 

 

 

[pararaftanr2]

Here's a photo of a USMC PBJ Mitchell medium bomber crewman from VMB-611 wearing an LC-14-B.

 

[pararaftanr2]

Per the 1944 manual, the LC-14-B carrying case was designed to be worn on the right hip, hung from the "regulation belt" (pistol or rifle belt). An alternate location would be on the left side of the haversack, hung from the bayonet tab, and the web strap with snap on the rear face of the LC-14-B case was to be threaded through the pack's horizontal bayonet loop and snapped shut.

[iron bender]

What about the two different blade lengths mentioned in the Silvey book. I know it's an old publication, but is there anything to that? Also, what about the stamped metal scabbard? Where does it fall into production?

[robinb]

In Dustins post it appears that the metal carrying case was for the civilian model 281.

[pararaftanr2]

Per the 1944 manual, the Military LC-14-B was 16" in length and was only provided with the canvas carrying case, as described previously here.

 

Victor's commercial model "No. 280-G2" was 16 1/2" long and had a galvanized steel case (the type "G-2") with a flat metal hanger and leather strap. Their more deluxe commercial model, the "No. 281", was also 16 1/2" long and two different cases were optional for it. "No. P2" was red lacquered steel with a flat metal belt hanger and leather strap. "No. CZ-2" case was olive drab canvas, with zipper closure, a stone in an integral pocket and a flat metal belt hanger. There is also a commercial model illustrated that is recommended as a "surveyor's tool", known as the "No. 361-S". It is also 16 1/2" long, but has "crosscut saw" and "rip saw" teeth on the spine of the blade, opposite the sharpened cutting edge. It has a "medium weight" blade, only 3/32" thick. Cases available for it were the "No. P3" and "No. CZ-3". It should be noted that the "CZ" case designation stand for "canvas zipper". The "P" series cases were lacquered metal, but the "No. P2" could also have a galvanized finish. "No. P3" was only lacquered. The "S" in model "No. 361-S", stands for "saw".

 

In Victor's numbering scheme, the third digit (they call it a "cipher") refers to the blade finish. The 1944 manual shows available finishes as types "0", "1", "5" and "6". I've no idea what 2, 3, or 4 would have been, but they must have been discontinued by 1944. Robin's "284" marked example would appear to pre-date 1944.

[iron bender]

Above Charlie mentioned these being used up through the Vietnam War. Here's my 67 date Frank and Warren survival axe. Items in pouches are magnifying glass and a stone. Fingers crossed the pics will display correctly (freakin I-phones)

 

[iron bender]

...more...

 

[iron bender]

....blade marking.....

 

[dustin]

Awesome!

Thanks for the addtional information Paul, that certainly solves a little bit of a riddle. I am now further educated, hooray!

 

What little I do know about the Survival Axe is that its specification was amended to six times to Amendment-F and was still active as 1994. Remained in service well beyond Vietnam.

Iron Bender, I see yours is Amendment-C of MIL-S-8642.

I can see how someone could have a considerable collection of these things accumulating the variants from WWII posted here and the entire MILSPEC series as well.

[dustin]

Here is the BuAer version of the survival axe, adopted 1953 and cancelled in 1959.

 

 

 

[pararaftanr2]

The 1944 manual shows the LC-14-B as being "U.S.A. Spec. 71-591-B Stock No. 6Q60114B". Hopefully Dustin, that agrees with the information you have found.

[robinb]

6Q60114B is a signal corps stock number.

[mohawkALSE]

On 1/30/2020 at 9:35 AM, dustin said:

Awesome!

Thanks for the addtional information Paul, that certainly solves a little bit of a riddle. I am now further educated, hooray!

 

What little I do know about the Survival Axe is that its specification was amended to six times to Amendment-F and was still active as 1994. Remained in service well beyond Vietnam.

Iron Bender, I see yours is Amendment-C of MIL-S-8642.

I can see how someone could have a considerable collection of these things accumulating the variants from WWII posted here and the entire MILSPEC series as well.

Would those amendments be only to the axe itself of perhaps the whole kit?  I have a couple of the Type IV Survival Axes, 1 is a 1967 example made by Frank & Warren and the other is a much later 1991 contract tool made by a contractor called Survival Equipment Co.   The 67 has a amendment C for the spec and the tool kit includes the Axe, Canvas case, a sharpening stone in a vinyl case, a burning lens in a vinyl case and a lashing string for the case.  The 91 has an amendment E and includes the Axe, Canvas case, a sharpening stone in a red vinyl case, a metal match sealed in foil seal packet and then the lashing string for the case.  Think the amendments have to do with the contents of the kits?  Its interesting the Frank & Warren tools have the MIL-S printed on the blades but the later tools made in the early 90s have no markings but that MIL-S is printed on the scabbard with the other nomenclature.

 

They were in fact used since the early 60s in Army Aircraft Survival kits, mainly I think the Hot Climate Kits all the way til the late 90s if not early 2000s.   Those original bulky kits were broken down in the later 90s and became a kit known as an AMSS which had some mandatory items and then the rest could be mission tailored so these tools were still sometimes included.  Wasn't really til the current SKRAM kits came around 2012-2013 that those tools were really no longer packed so this is why there has been a number of them for sale for the last 20 or so years.