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MKII grenade canisters


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#1 Rifleman

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 06:44 PM

Do any of you know if anyone is making WWII repro M41 genade canisters?I ran across these listed as repro grenades.It's obvious they are,but look at the canisters.They look original.The price would be worth it if these are original.

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#2 Bodes

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 06:58 PM

Cans are copies as well.....Bodes

#3 917601

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 07:46 PM

Copies are being made. A fellow on the G503 website does it all, wooden ordnance crates, small arms ammo crates, Fibre tubes ( what these are called), vinyl stencils and inking stamps. Ordnance related items are getting harder to find, but Fibre tubes and crates were always harder to find than the ordnance pieces themselves ( of course, they were made to be discarded)....doesn't everyone want a Fibre tube for your MKII grenade, bazooka round, or M61 Sherman tank round?

#4 Kaptainssurplus

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 08:08 PM

How are those tubes being made? The metal top would be very difficult to make. Looks like real top with replica frag marking? 



#5 Bodes

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 04:49 AM

The metal top would be very difficult to make. Looks like real top with replica frag marking? 


In college I studied progressive dies....A single stage die or two would seem sufficient.....One to cut out the round blank, another to take the blank and emboss the wording, giving it form while crimping the edge....Bodes

#6 917601

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 06:38 AM

Without an original tube placed side by side for inspection, we can not really say it is a reproduction. I have a few WW2 era smoke grenade Fibre tubes and they are pristine like the day they were made. A seller on eBay had found over 10,000 of them sitting in an old warehouse east coast somewhere. Not sure if they were painted high gloss black back then. Are the containers ink marked, lot number, G numbers, etc.? If so, post war.

Edited by 917601, 13 January 2020 - 06:51 AM.


#7 Kaptainssurplus

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 03:20 PM

In college I studied progressive dies....A single stage die or two would seem sufficient.....One to cut out the round blank, another to take the blank and emboss the wording, giving it form while crimping the edge....Bodes


That is a lot of work just to make a replica, I see no sense in it. To me the tube looks good, not a replica, just the white ink marked "FRAG" looks too nice. Would have to see the rest of the tube. Right now as it stands it doesn't look like a replica, usually they use the other type of grenade tube, the ones marked with "grenade"tube tops and then ink mark the sides of the tube with whatever they want. But making a top and bottom metal parts with a die would take forever for something that isnt worth a whole bunch, doesn't seem feasible to me.

Edited by Kaptainssurplus, 13 January 2020 - 03:21 PM.


#8 silverplate

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 04:23 PM

Considering how hard it is to find the WW2-style canisters whether original or replica, if the price is right I'd buy them.



#9 Bodes

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 06:15 PM

That is a lot of work just to make a replica, I see no sense in it. To me the tube looks good, not a replica, just the white ink marked "FRAG" looks too nice. Would have to see the rest of the tube. Right now as it stands it doesn't look like a replica, usually they use the other type of grenade tube, the ones marked with "grenade"tube tops and then ink mark the sides of the tube with whatever they want. But making a top and bottom metal parts with a die would take forever for something that isnt worth a whole bunch, doesn't seem feasible to me.


I've seen original frag grenade cans sell for over $100, so going through the "work" could be profitable as long as demand outweighs the supply....Bodes

#10 Kaptainssurplus

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 06:59 PM

I've seen original frag grenade cans sell for over $100, so going through the "work" could be profitable as long as demand outweighs the supply....Bodes


Most original MK2 tubes I have seen have sold for more around $30-65 each, never seen one sell for over $100. If you look at completed auctions some even as little as $20. So if you do the math, buying non marked original tubes (cost of $5 or more) and then converting it to a replica MK2 tube, the time and equipment to do so, I still dont see it as feasible. Making them from scratch even more so. The only way is if they made hundreds of them and at that point I would know about them and so would others as they would saturate the market. So my opinion is that they are most likely real. But would need better photos of the tubes to know for sure.

#11 Bodes

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 06:45 AM

Most original MK2 tubes I have seen have sold for more around $30-65 each, never seen one sell for over $100. If you look at completed auctions some even as little as $20. So if you do the math, buying non marked original tubes (cost of $5 or more) and then converting it to a replica MK2 tube, the time and equipment to do so, I still dont see it as feasible. Making them from scratch even more so. The only way is if they made hundreds of them and at that point I would know about them and so would others as they would saturate the market. So my opinion is that they are most likely real. But would need better photos of the tubes to know for sure.


I'll buy them all day long for $20, just show me where they are....I'm not talking about a $40-50K die built for general motors.....Have one built for a few grand, sell off a few hundred and your investment is recouped....And besides, who knows maybe some of the original dies still exist.....Better yet....

And if the French are willing to ante up the cost to replicate German ZF4 sniper cans that can be hard to discern from the originals, than these are small potatoes in comparison.....And last I knew, the market isn't saturated with replicated ZF4 cans......Bodes

#12 Kaptainssurplus

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 07:08 AM

I'll buy them all day long for $20, just show me where they are....I'm not talking about a $40-50K die built for general motors.....Have one built for a few grand, sell off a few hundred and your investment is recouped....And besides, who knows maybe some of the original dies still exist.....Better yet....

And if the French are willing to ante up the cost to replicate German ZF4 sniper cans that can be hard to discern from the originals, than these are small potatoes in comparison.....And last I knew, the market isn't saturated with replicated ZF4 cans......Bodes

Here is one that sold for $12 just the other day.

https://rover.ebay.c...tm/352922012189

If you watch ebay and GB I see them in that price range $30-65, not $20. I said I have seen some sell for that, not what they usually sell for. You just have to look and you will see. So look at ebay and GB every once and a while. Also I never seen one sell for over $100 like you said. Hell I see MK2s with tubes selling for $250-300 all the time too. My points are still valid, there is no proof any have been made nor is it even close to being a real option. Spending thousands on equipment and the time to make them you would have to make thousands of tube to recoup the money. Could it happen? Yes Has it most likely not. Anyway these look real to me and still haven't ever seen a replica tube that has the top and bottom embossed markings, only the ones embossed grenade that has replica ink markings on the sides. So if these replicas exist please show me a photo, I'm interested in seeing them.

Edited by Kaptainssurplus, 14 January 2020 - 07:16 AM.


#13 manayunkman

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 09:20 AM

Someone has to buy one and find out for sure.

I’m broke until this passes.

#14 Rifleman

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 04:51 PM

This is a link to the auction which has now ended.

 

https://www.ebay.com...=p2047675.l2557



#15 Dirt Detective

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 06:01 PM

Repo M41 Grenade Tubes are out there...the best were made by Rob L    here is what his looks like, https://www.worthpoi...-hand-506741600    I dont think he is making them now..he also made top notch crates with repo hinges...he was know as  " Arcadia Ordnance Depot" 

 

 

1rob grenade.jpg


Edited by Dirt Detective, 14 January 2020 - 06:02 PM.


#16 Dirt Detective

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 06:14 PM

This is a link to the auction which has now ended.

 

https://www.ebay.com...=p2047675.l2557

 

Hard to tell from these pics if repo or not..easier to spot from the inside if real or not.  I have one of Robs cans and I have a few real M41's,  If I get time tomorrow I will try and post pics of both. 



#17 RobL

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:19 PM

The tubes in the auction listing are (as Dirt Detective surmised) my reproductions.  

 

I started making repro tubes about 15 years ago (to fill my repro crates).   Frags, 60mm mortar, 2.36 inch Bazooka, 37mm, and in 2013 I added 76mm Gun tubes (made hundreds of each type for use in the film Fury).

 

I sold out of all the extra tubes I made for Fury not long after the film came out.  Been thinking about another run of tubes for a few years but it seems like my real job keeps getting in the way of the fun stuff.

 

Back in the day, I used a few original tubes in my collection as templates to create steel stamping dies - to stamp the metal lids.  Then had a paper tube company create the fiber tube and crimp on the lid.  The fiber walls are the correct thickness and diameters of originals.   These are not painted 'close-enough mailing tubes'.    It was a hefty investment for the tooling and R&D.  But its been worth it to make items so well received by the collecting community.

 

Original lids were (for the most part) painted gloss black.   I also made the correct yellow stamped old tape that wrapped around the tube.

 

My repro tubes (most of them) are stamped inside with my maker's mark initials  A. O. D.   

 

Dirt Detective has been the inspiration from Day One - met him at the Southern California MVPA monthly meet.  

 

Anyway, I will say this, I'm flattered by the continuing comparison of my repros to original tubes - I guess I did a good enough job.  

 

However, it's a crime to see such a crappy repro postwar frag body and fuze inside that tube.    Ditch that bad frag but keep that tube.   ^_^

Rob L. 

 

25fragtubes copy.jpg

fragtube3 copy.jpg

bztubeends copy.jpg

 

 



#18 Kaptainssurplus

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 03:02 AM

Great information, also nice that you stamped them inside to ID them as repos. Now I have to look through mine and make sure I didn't buy one thinking it's real. :(

How much did you sell them for originally? Also did you ever do the markings on the side of the tubes or just the tops and bottoms?

#19 Dirt Detective

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 07:08 AM

Hey Rob,

                 Its good to see you on here...I forgot that you were a member.  Thanks for the nice words on the inspiration..your crates and cans are the gold standard.  I still have one of your sealed repo grenade crates...

 

Rgds, Mike


Edited by Dirt Detective, 15 January 2020 - 07:09 AM.


#20 917601

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 08:10 AM

Robl- lots of thoughts on this. Seems you became a modern day " .Gov contractor". Same specs, skilled work. Nice to have for getting our Ordnance out in public and viewed. Negative side is when sold by buyers as original, but not your problem, it will be theirs when the day comes they are called on it.

#21 Persian Gulf Command

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 01:54 PM

My intent is not to step on anyone's toes here but I would just like to ask these questions. 

 

When does the militaria collector community determine that manufactured reproductions, that are almost exact, are benign? 

 

When does the militaria collector community determine that manufactured reproductions, that are almost exact, are harmful to the hobby?

 

These questions are what I consider rhetorical as since I have been collecting militaria for 40 years, throughout this journey, I have never had the experience where reproductions, that are almost exact, were a "good thing".


Edited by Persian Gulf Command, 15 January 2020 - 01:55 PM.


#22 Dirt Detective

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 02:17 PM

The repo grenade tubes as good as they look are a hair smaller in diameter than a real WWII M41 tube...a real one being about .86  and robs being about .76  and the black part of the tube  on a real can being about .11  and the repo being about .06.   the center cardboard tube on both are about the same at about .11 

 

In the photo below the two repo cans are to the left. the other photo shows a real lid with Robs lid under it.

 

2rob1.JPG

2rob2.JPG



#23 Dirt Detective

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 02:23 PM

Here is one that sold for $12 just the other day.

https://rover.ebay.c...tm/352922012189

If you watch ebay and GB I see them in that price range $30-65, not $20. I said I have seen some sell for that, not what they usually sell for. You just have to look and you will see. So look at ebay and GB every once and a while. Also I never seen one sell for over $100 like you said. Hell I see MK2s with tubes selling for $250-300 all the time too. My points are still valid, there is no proof any have been made nor is it even close to being a real option. Spending thousands on equipment and the time to make them you would have to make thousands of tube to recoup the money. Could it happen? Yes Has it most likely not. Anyway these look real to me and still haven't ever seen a replica tube that has the top and bottom embossed markings, only the ones embossed grenade that has replica ink markings on the sides. So if these replicas exist please show me a photo, I'm interested in seeing them.

 

Although a nice original can a M41A2 ..it does not compare to a M41 can with the " Hand Grenade MK II " embosed in the lid. 


Edited by Dirt Detective, 15 January 2020 - 02:25 PM.


#24 Kaptainssurplus

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 03:01 PM

My intent is not to step on anyone's toes here but I would just like to ask these questions. 
 
When does the militaria collector community determine that manufactured reproductions, that are almost exact, are benign? 
 
When does the militaria collector community determine that manufactured reproductions, that are almost exact, are harmful to the hobby?
 
These questions are what I consider rhetorical as since I have been collecting militaria for 40 years, throughout this journey, I have never had the experience where reproductions, that are almost exact, were a "good thing".



That's the same thing I have struggled with for awhile now. I usually stick to inert ordnance and related now a days with my collecting and have noticed a uptick in replicas, repros and restored items. Some are just benign and obvious but others are made and restored for one goal, money and greed. Ordnance and related items have skyrocketed in prices and is getting harder and harder to find certain items, so now its viable for people to make fakes. Also technology has got to the point where even regular unskilled people can make stuff where it used to be a very skilled activity. To me any repro, replica and restored items hurt the collecting community unless they are well marked as such but unfortunately most are not. That makes it very difficult for new collectors getting into the game. I can't tell you how many times people buy those junk chinese gun show cast grenades thinking they are real and sometimes for big bucks only to find out later that got scammed and they are not real. And those are about as easy as it gets spotting a fake, as anything can be. So that just shows you the damage it can have on the collecting community and I wont go into all the other stuff like German/Nazi stuff that's faked. The other thing is people taking a nice but rusty or worn items and restoring them to look nice, ruining the originality of the item and even sometimes incorrectly restoring it. There are more and more dealers and sellers doing this now a days to maximize profit, but for the most part all it does is remove the originality of items (there are some however that it's good to restore if it's already so gone or bad enough in the first place). So it really comes down to each person's view on this issue but I would say for most collectors it's a bad thing. I will add there are certain situations where it can be positive, like making stuff for movies, reenacting, etc were you dont want to ruin or use real/original items. But I would say if you are making them for that, at least mark them replica or something. None the less, when there is money to be made there will always be fakes, just look to history, pretty much everything has been faked or replicated over the years, even back thousands of years.

#25 Kaptainssurplus

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 03:04 PM

 
Although a nice original can a M41A2 ..it does not compare to a M41 can with the " Hand Grenade MK II " embosed in the lid. 

Your correct, but it's still an original can, which is too my point I made. Like I said multiple times most sell in the average range of $30-65, sometimes getting a little more but never seen any sell for $100 or more. Also just to point out there are some wartime M41 MK2 cans that arent embossed with the Hand Grenade MK2.

Edited by Kaptainssurplus, 15 January 2020 - 03:06 PM.



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