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British bombardier wing, Real?


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#1 Phantomf4

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 08:31 PM

I know you guys probably get bombarded with these questions, but i could use some help. I don't know much about fakes. These are unmarked and the bomb on the front is a separate piece. So your thoughts please.

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#2 Phantomf4

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 08:31 PM

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#3 Phantomf4

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 08:36 PM

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#4 Phantomf4

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 08:36 PM

pics

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#5 Phantomf4

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 08:36 PM

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#6 rooster77

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:36 PM

I think those are genuine British made US Bomber Wings but postwar or late 40's

early 50's... Because of that cross hatched pattern on the back.

But real wings. not fakes. Someone will check me on that if Im incorrect.


Edited by rooster77, 27 November 2019 - 09:37 PM.


#7 Phantomf4

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:40 PM

oh whew, i'm just glad it's real. heck postwar might make it more rare right? LOL



#8 rathbonemuseum.com

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 02:01 AM

Yes. Good English made wing. Unmarked. A good sign is the weak silver wash over brass. I am not familiar with the crosshatch dating it postwar. I would have said wartime. These are desirable but not as hard to find as others UK made wings with hallmarks.

#9 Allan H.

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 06:27 AM

I also believe this to be an original, WWII vintage wing. I point to the silver washed brass as more of a wartime measure. The cross hatching on the back side is just a manufacturer's variation and not a true indicator of a post WWII wing.

 

Allan



#10 Kadet

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 07:30 AM

I agree...these are wartime Brit made wings. 



#11 Phantomf4

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 08:01 AM

That's great info guy's, i really appreciate the responses!! Know i got myself a real set of Brit made wings! 



#12 rustywings

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 07:27 AM

Yes, I think that Bombardier wing is a nice authentic, heavily worn, WWII era badge. But I'm not convinced it's British-made?  I think there's a good chance that Bombardier wing may have been produced by "K. G. Luke" located in Melbourne, Australia.

 

Here's a gilt-plated Flight Surgeon wing, made using the identical patterned base-wing and findings, which may have come from the same source as that Bombardier wing. The wing itself is not hallmarked... but the attached caduceus is hallmarked with the Australian maker. So, Commonwealth-made, yes! But I'm leaning towards Australia, rather than England, as its place of origin...

Fun stuff!

 

 

                

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#13 Phantomf4

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 07:44 AM

Oh wow, thats a nice wing! Your right that base wing looks almost identical.



#14 Phantomf4

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 07:57 AM

so is there a rarity scale for ww2 wings? something like this

 

1. J.R. Guant

2. Juarez

3. Vanguard 

 

etc. etc. It would be interesting to see.



#15 Phantomf4

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:05 AM

And also here's another question thats been on my mind. I know U.S. wings where also made by Britian and Australia but where there any others? like say Italy, Africa, French, China, Burmese, indian, German etc.This question is only for WW2 wings.



#16 MikeK

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:09 AM

Hi,

 

My immediate thoughts on the Navigator's Badge that started the thread was WW2 vintage and British made.

 

Russ, your Gold Flight Surgeon's Badge is a bit of an eye opener as I've never even suspected an Aussie connection for this exact wing pattern (which has similar detailed feathering to UK marked badges but different shoulders to the UK marked badges). I guess I'll ask a couple of questions, specifically, as central devices (eg Air Crew, Air Gunner, the Navigator above, etc) on other types using this base (Observer's) wing pattern are die struck (like the base wing itself), is the caduceus also die struck? And a very direct one, is the caduceus definitely original to the badge? 

 

Any provenance for this Flight Engineer? I ask because I've seen a few wings with this base pattern (Air Crew and Air Gunner) stated as having come from 8th AF vets/estates, which would lean more toward a British connection. 

 

The hardware, specifically the "chunky" C-catch may help point the right direction, as that style of catch would be atypical for Aussie marked badges (not just wings) of this period. They tend to be of the thin, flat style C-catch.

 

My final thought on this matter would be that if K G Luke produced this pattern wing, that would make three (3) distinct US wing patterns that they produced, which seems sort of overkill for what would have been a limited market!

 

All that being said, I remain open-minded and would be happy to see another definitely Aussie WW2 vintage US wing pattern!

 

Regards

Mike

 

PS: sorry, can't help myself, but to partially answer the previous post, a WW2 vintage US wing made in Germany would be pretty rare, as any manufacturer "thinking ahead" like that would probably have been put against a wall and "re-educated".  However, POST-WW2 (Occupation period) US wings made in Germany are not that common, with Assmann probably being the "easiest" to find.  CBI, mainly India but certainly China as well, would probably rank next after UK and Australia. Mexico and Panama should be on the list as well somewhere.


Edited by MikeK, 03 December 2019 - 09:11 AM.


#17 Phantomf4

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:47 AM

So fellows lets solve this mystery, anyone have British and Australian made wings we can see to compare?



#18 rustywings

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 11:22 AM

Hey Mike, thanks for opening my eyes a bit wider! I'm now leaning back the other way and withdraw my possible Australian-made connection notion! Upon closer inspection I can reaffirm the wings are indeed die-struck, just like the other examples I have of this pattern... but the caduceus on the Flight Surgeon wing is cast, not die-struck as depicted on the other attached center pieces. 

 

The overall badge appears consistent to the era, but without any provenance to fall back on, I now see it as a possible period jeweler made badge, rather than being produced by the K.C. Luke Company itself...  Even with a bit of crow stuck between my teeth, it's still fun stuff!

 

Russ 


Edited by rustywings, 03 December 2019 - 11:24 AM.


#19 MikeK

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 04:23 PM

Hi Russ,

 

Thanks for taking another look at the caduceus and your conclusion - you are a true legend of the hobby!

 

I had already had another line of thought and went looking for Luke made caduceus' as I was sure I remember seeing Luke marked examples. I found pics of 2, funnily enough in one thread here (see link below, posts 36-40 and 68) and both of those look die struck. One is even on a first pattern Luke wing. I think that may be a badge familiar to you  :)

 

One other possibility (coming from someone who has learned of - not participated in! - many refinishing methods during my WW2 German badge collecting experiences), as the base wing on your Flight Surgeon looks fine (as you've re-affirmed). Is there any indication that another central device (eg a "common" Air Crew device) has been removed and the cast caduceus attached before (or after) the wing was refinished? That sort of sneaky scenario would make economic sense to a faker - ie, basically taking a "low end" genuine badge and upgrade it to rare badge (the term used is a "Frankenstein" badge, common with Imperial Iron Crosses where a 2nd class is reformed into a 1st class with "interesting" reverse hardware). Detailed inspection around the Observer roundel and of the entire gilt finish may highlight evidence either way, as would the presence/absence of wear - especially on the very high relief wing shoulders (eg as seen on the nice Navigator's badge at the top of the thread.

 

I'm purely interested in getting to the bottom of this interesting Flight Surgeon's badge (sorry for hijacking the thread!).

 

Regards

Mike



#20 Phantomf4

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 04:30 PM

You should feel bad....... Hijaker.......LOL :D



#21 Phantomf4

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 06:55 PM

So i was on the "Aviation wings and badges of the world wars" web site, there is a exact set like my bombardier wings posted on there, says it's the collection of Cliff Presley. anyone know him? He might shed some light on these.



#22 Kadet

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 08:40 AM

Meant to post these. They were in a group I acquired a few years ago to a SSG that served as a gunner in the 837th BS, 487th BG. The wings were in the medal cases with his ribbons, Dog Tags, DFC, AM and PH. The group was never in a collection before mine and he never served in the PTO. I think this style of wing is definitely Brit made...

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Edited by Kadet, 07 December 2019 - 08:42 AM.


#23 Kadet

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 08:40 AM

2

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#24 cwnorma

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 11:55 AM

... says it's the collection of Cliff Presley. anyone know him?

 

Most wing collectors know Cliff.  He is a long-time collector and has a very extensive collection.  Alas, Cliff has not been very active on the forum for the last few years.  I have caught him lurking here though from time to time.  Perhaps he might be enticed to weigh in?

 

Chris



#25 Phantomf4

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 02:23 PM

Thanks guys




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