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US Navy "three-bladed, all-metal knives" in Apollo survival kits?


HoustonSooner17
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HoustonSooner17

Hello all,

 

I have a question regarding US military-issued pocket knives that seemed appropriate for this forum. I have a mild interest in military and astronaut equipment, and I was curious about the contents of the Apollo program survival kits. I located a NASA document called "Apollo Equipment Report - Crew Provisions and Equipment Subsystem" (NASA TN-D-6737) which lists all of the crew equipment carried aboard the Apollo spacecraft, from sleep restraints to survival gear, and makes recommendations for improvements to the gear.

 

I knew that the astronauts carried the Case Astronaut Machete, as well as a pocket knife which I had assumed to be a standard MIL-K-818 "Knife, Pocket, General Purpose", since it was not only standard military issue but also all-metal and therefore non-flammable (indeed, the Smithsonian has images of a '59 Camillus MIL-K that was carried aboard Mercury Freedom 7).

 

post-210037-0-83824400-1573662539.png

 

This document, however, states that:

 

"Two survival knives are provided for each Apollo survival kit. These are standard three-bladed all-metal knives developed by the U. S. Navy. These items are stowed in the space provided through the use of a smaller kit and serve as functional filler material."

 

Except for the description as "three-bladed," that sure sounds like an MIL-K to me. Or did the Navy develop their own three-bladed, all-metal pocket knife?

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The Navy did not need can openers on their knives as they had mess facilities on the ships.

 

While not true in all instances, the presence or absence of a can opener is one possible identifier as to whether a WW1 era rope knife was Army or Navy in many cases.

 

Some think that only the Navy rope knives had marlin spikes, but the Army was still using horses and mules all the way up to WW2 and the spike was useful for loosening pack knots.

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The Navy did not need can openers on their knives as they had mess facilities on the ships.

 

While not true in all instances, the presence or absence of a can opener is one possible identifier as to whether a WW1 era rope knife was Army or Navy in many cases.

 

Some think that only the Navy rope knives had marlin spikes, but the Army was still using horses and mules all the way up to WW2 and the spike was useful for loosening pack knots.

Personally I would not presume that a sailor would not need a can opener nor would I presume that a cavalryman would need a marlin spike

post-2723-0-35452400-1573706284_thumb.jpg

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I have a similar interest and have collected quite a few pictures, articles and documents regarding knives and guns associated with NASA. Short answer: I think they just made a mistake in the document to which you refer in describing the MIL-K. There may be some overlap but here are the knives associated with each program:

 

Gemini: Randall Astro and Camillus MC-1.

Mercury: MIL-K

Apollo: Case machete and MIL-K

Shuttle: SAK Master Craftsman, Leatherman, Emerson

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Space is my other fascination. There is a great site called collectspace.com that is kind of the USMF for space collectors. You should post over there. Lots of great folks that are happy to help out.

 

Mikie

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There are large collector communities for a.) the various knives used in the space programs; b.) the watches worn in space and just about everything else that has been in low earth orbit. I've got one of the Case machetes and a Swiss Army knife that were part of the space program but I also have this:

 

post-68-0-69647500-1574466187_thumb.jpg

 

post-68-0-89950500-1574466413.jpg

General Stewart went on two shuttle missions and was one of the first astronauts to make an untethered space walk using the MMU.

 

post-68-0-61522600-1574466648.jpg

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If there is another way you can post those pictures that would be nice. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the Colt forum, but I'm not inclined to reflexively join places on the net just to see pictures and it prevents this forum from being able to archive the images to preserve them.

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If there is another way you can post those pictures that would be nice. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the Colt forum, but I'm not inclined to reflexively join places on the net just to see pictures and it prevents this forum from being able to archive the images to preserve them.

Understood but posting pictures on this forum is not easy.

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The Navy did not need can openers on their knives as they had mess facilities on the ships.

 

While not true in all instances, the presence or absence of a can opener is one possible identifier as to whether a WW1 era rope knife was Army or Navy in many cases.

 

Some think that only the Navy rope knives had marlin spikes, but the Army was still using horses and mules all the way up to WW2 and the spike was useful for loosening pack knots.

Correct me if I am wrong but did'nt life boat survival water come packed in cans

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Correct me if I am wrong but did'nt life boat survival water come packed in cans

 

 

The answer is YES and the answer is NO. :D

 

On the right is the M-592 Back Pad Kit, the one the pilots strapped on under their parachutes (reportedly very uncomfortable). It had 2 screw top cans of water.

 

On the left is one of the larger cans found on the ship borne life rafts. It needed some type of instrument to open it up.

 

Edit - somehow, the pic ended up at the bottom, rather than here where I tried to put it.

 

 

The 592 came with 2 cutting instruments, a machete and a folding knife. Sometime in 1944, the folding knife was the 6" Colonial "Giant Jack Knife", with a cutting blade and a saw blade. Prior to that, they "probably" had the Camillus 3 blade knives shown in post #3 this thread --- http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/191230-wwii-camillus-life-raft-knife/

 

 

For the machetes, originally, the 592 came with the Collins #18 Pequeno Machete and later there were also Case and Western clones, improperly called V44s. Those were then replaced with the folding machetes by Case, Imperial and Camillus, to then be replaced by the Case fixed blade machete which was the only real V44.

 

The one-man life rafts had the Western Life Raft knife and a folding knife, whatever came before the Colonial and then the Colonial.

 

The ship's life rafts carried the Western Life Raft Knife and probably the Camillus 3 blade "life raft knife" which was later replaced with the all metal 4 blade (w/ can opener) MIL-K-818 knives. Camillus was still supplying them to the Navy all the way up to their closing.

 

I don't know what the Navy started using after they ran Camillus out of stock on hand since then, if they have run out. The life rafts are checked/tested every 5 years. The knives would be left in the contents, so the rafts may still have 1960s, 1970s etc knives in them to this day.

post-216437-0-37462500-1574394171_thumb.jpg

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HoustonSooner17

Short answer: I think they just made a mistake in the document to which you refer in describing the MIL-K.

I agree that this is the most plausible explanation.

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The answer is YES and the answer is NO. :D

 

On the right is the M-592 Back Pad Kit, the one the pilots strapped on under their parachutes (reportedly very uncomfortable). It had 2 screw top cans of water.

 

On the left is one of the larger cans found on the ship borne life rafts. It needed some type of instrument to open it up.

 

Edit - somehow, the pic ended up at the bottom, rather than here where I tried to put it.

 

 

The 592 came with 2 cutting instruments, a machete and a folding knife. Sometime in 1944, the folding knife was the 6" Colonial "Giant Jack Knife", with a cutting blade and a saw blade. Prior to that, they "probably" had the Camillus 3 blade knives shown in post #3 this thread --- http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/191230-wwii-camillus-life-raft-knife/

 

 

For the machetes, originally, the 592 came with the Collins #18 Pequeno Machete and later there were also Case and Western clones, improperly called V44s. Those were then replaced with the folding machetes by Case, Imperial and Camillus, to then be replaced by the Case fixed blade machete which was the only real V44.

 

The one-man life rafts had the Western Life Raft knife and a folding knife, whatever came before the Colonial and then the Colonial.

 

The ship's life rafts carried the Western Life Raft Knife and probably the Camillus 3 blade "life raft knife" which was later replaced with the all metal 4 blade (w/ can opener) MIL-K-818 knives. Camillus was still supplying them to the Navy all the way up to their closing.

 

I don't know what the Navy started using after they ran Camillus out of stock on hand since then, if they have run out. The life rafts are checked/tested every 5 years. The knives would be left in the contents, so the rafts may still have 1960s, 1970s etc knives in them to this day.

 

Yikes!

There is all sorts of errors in that statement.

First with the M-592 back pad kit.

It was provided with two cutting implements, the V-44 machete and the jackknife M-575. The V-44 is the fixed bladed machete modeled after the USAAF folding 10-inch. The jackknife M-575 is a four bladed engineer type. The M-592 never included the Giant jackknife, it was a separate item for individual issue. Its intended purpose was to replace the jackknife and V-44 machete included in the M-592 upon adoption of the PK-1 pararaft kit. In Volume One of my books, starting on p.140, I begin to explain the whole knew concept of individual survival equipment for Naval aviators.

In Volume Three, that will be out soon, there is a comprehensive chapter on Navy back pad kits that will further define and dispel myths.

The Giant jackknife did not appear until 1945, for the US Navy.

The 9-inch machetes like the Collins #18, was more proprietary to the USAAF. Coming in Volume Four, I have a comprehensive chapter on Knives and Machetes, that will really spell out issuance of all these tools to aviation activities.

 

One-man pararafts did NOT include knives of any sort, only with multi-person types, was it a standard for both the Navy and USAAF. The Navy would adopt and retain, always, the use of a jackknife. The USAAF first used a three bladed jackknife, then in January 1944, transitioned to the floating knife. All aspects of these rafts are covered in the first two chapters of Volume One in my books.

Knives were carried as personal equipment, standard was a fixed bladed knife. Again, I detail this quite inclusively in the up coming volume four. Parachute emergency kits included jackknives, both for the US Navy and USAAF. The standard for the Navy was a four bladed type and a 3-bladed type for the USAAF. However, the Navy did incorporate a three bladed type as. At the end of the chapter on knives and machetes, I discuss the types and their origins.

Life rafts for Ships did not carry knives, they actually provided real can openers. Same for life boats for the Merchant Marine as approved by the USCG.

USCG and Navy regulations stipulated that all personnel would carry a jackknife, whistle, life preserver light and life vest.

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