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The “Holy Grail” of Raider helmets


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#151 kammo-man

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 01:27 PM

This is something which is greatly lacking among many collectors who post here... along with explanations of negative assessments and simple decorum.

Do you have something positive to say about the helmet and the other 3 clones ?



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#152 Bill47

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 01:41 PM

I could be wrong.

But I’m confident.

Always a good position to take.  

We may be on our way to an irreconcilable standoff.  One side believes it's authentic, the other has well-founded doubts.  Either side may be wrong.

In the meantime, let's get as much info as possible and for now that means getting the latest photos.

Let's resume this discussion at that time.

Just my opinion.

Bill 



#153 rooster77

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 01:53 PM

Personally... I dont know much at all about helmets. Im here to learn.

I post helmets to get opinions and to be truthful.. somewhat of a show and tell situation. Ive picked up something Im excited about and

I want to share it with like minded people.

I do not understand however the level of hostility that comes out from some of our members over these helmets?

You go to the wing section for instance, you dont get this level of disagreement.

Makes you think twice before you post a new lid. Makes you think twice before you make a comment like im making here on this post.

Its very enlightening.

I'l stand by the OP and wait until he gets back and gets the lid. In the meantime. Congratulations!

The guy got himself a new lid. When he gets it, I'm sure he will share. Stop pissin in his pot already.


Edited by rooster77, 09 November 2019 - 01:58 PM.


#154 Thor996

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 02:54 PM



Serious question, why bring it up then? If you think the helmet is faked and you have an idea who may have done it why not call them out and spread awareness? I'm not sure what keeping this accomplishes other than keeping some people out of the loop on who's creating fakes and stirring the pot in this thread (which has already ran in circles for the past 3 or 4 pages).

 


Serious answer: Cuz I can.

 

I'm not keeping anything from anyone, I'm merely doing what you're doing now, putting my two cents worth in.

 

I'm not a helmet collector per se- but there's enough threads on this forum about the pitfalls of helmet collecting and these high profile helmet threads are always interesting...have you read those threads? examined those faked helmets? I'd say there's a few threads about fakers out there that have hundreds and thousands of 'views'. If you do your homework and read about some past high profile fakers and look at their resume of fakes perhaps you can deduce who you think this person might be [if this helmet turns out to be a humped up fake]... I say IF it turns out to be a fake..but I'm not naming names DESPITE my suspicions.. NOR will I name he who should not be named cuz I'd bank on that he who should not be named may be lurking ...



#155 Burning Hazard

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 02:59 PM

Helmets making it home to the States in the hands of enlisted men are an exception and certainly not the rule. Officers had more success with this or if a helmet saved your life and was no longer serviceable then I expect you could bring it home. Most were simply handed in and repainted for further issue or sold off to foreign armies.
We don’t see any of these helmets and then 4 show up in a space of 3 years - yes collectors are dying and helmets showing up but demand for helmets has never been higher.
Treat every one with suspicion. These are turning up as regular as JKASH’s M2’s that his special picker used to find with alarming ease.

It could all be legit but as a community it is only right that we question it.

 

True, fate of many helmets post war was a depot repaint and re-issue. Some painted helmets did survive, but very small compared to the 100's, even 1000's of painted helmets that were worn in WWII.

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  • M1 helmet repainting 1945.jpg


#156 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 04:05 PM

I’m a firm believer in it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. I have seen posts on this thread from folks that appear not to understand the part about “how you say it”.

Kurt

#157 Nickman983

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 04:35 PM



 

Serious answer: Cuz I can.

 

I'm not keeping anything from anyone, I'm merely doing what you're doing now, putting my two cents worth in.

 

I'm not a helmet collector per se- but there's enough threads on this forum about the pitfalls of helmet collecting and these high profile helmet threads are always interesting...have you read those threads? examined those faked helmets? I'd say there's a few threads about fakers out there that have hundreds and thousands of 'views'. If you do your homework and read about some past high profile fakers and look at their resume of fakes perhaps you can deduce who you think this person might be [if this helmet turns out to be a humped up fake]... I say IF it turns out to be a fake..but I'm not naming names DESPITE my suspicions.. NOR will I name he who should not be named cuz I'd bank on that he who should not be named may be lurking ...

 

Is that a roundabout way of saying you think it's a jkash special?

 

I've read the threads on the fakers who have either been called out after I had joined the forums (jkash and to a much lesser extent screamingeagles101) and the ones whose names I've seen brought up enough (namely easy_green). I'm sure there are some that I do not know about as they were either called out before I started collecting and joined the forums or some whose names that I have not seen mentioned.

 

Personally, if this helmet is in fact faked as has been suggested, I'm not sure if I'd pin it on jkash. While he did do a lot of camo helmets this one seems to be a bit outside his normal bread and butter. I could easily be wrong, though we'll have to wait for more pictures to get a better idea.

 

I'm really not sure why some on these threads feel the need to be cryptic about their answers. We're all (mostly) on these forums for the same reason, to share our passion for collecting. I would think (or at least hope) part of that passion would be sharing our knowledge and helping others learn more about the hobby.



#158 ludwigh1980

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 06:20 PM

I can understand how some new collectors would hesitate to post a helmet on the forum, however I think to ensure the healthy sustainability of the hobby, every major benchmark artifact should be reviewed and up for debate. To take each helmet as the gospel beyond reproach is fallacy that will eventually destroy the hobby. The forum has an unfathomable amount of expertise through the cumulative participation and background of its members. Trends in fakes and the characteristics of methods as well as fakers can be identified quickly and this information can be disseminated just as quickly. Before the internet, fakers could bilk a multitude of victims with the results only known at the liquidation of the collection when the market determined the value years later.  I would rather know a helmet is fake right away within the return period than to be at a time or place when I needed to liquidate utilizing a $50 return on a $1900 investment. The opinions presented here and in similar threads are a reflection of what opinion that the market will have and subsequent value of the particular item. I have seen entire genre's of historical collectables collapse because the majority of participants failed to confront maleficence perpetrated by a few. Faking can destroy an entire hobby. History, individuals investments and livelihoods are at stake. and no item should be beyond reproach. Avoidance of debate because it might make some-one feel uncomfortable does nothing for the hobby. This forum is a major force behind the 20th Century U.S. Militaria market. 



#159 tarbridge

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 07:04 PM

It is up to the posting members to keep this thread alive...so keep it civil or will be closed.We are trying hard to let it run.Robert

#160 GeneralCheese

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 08:41 PM

My opinion is that the burlap does not show the proper wear you'd expect to see on the inside.  Taking into account the rust in the interior, you would expect to see the burlap shrink and have way more rust as it would act as a sponge and hold moisture to the shell.


Edited by GeneralCheese, 09 November 2019 - 08:42 PM.


#161 63 RECON

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 10:20 PM

What type of burlap was used? Anyone know? Was it similar to sandbag stuff or the coloured cam netting? That had a treatment didnt it?
Normal sandbag burlap doesnt last long.
Also is the helmet from M1 helmet depot being brought into question? Is he suss?

#162 Bugme

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 10:39 PM

What type of burlap was used? Anyone know? Was it similar to sandbag stuff or the coloured cam netting? That had a treatment didnt it?
Normal sandbag burlap doesnt last long.
Also is the helmet from M1 helmet depot being brought into question? Is he suss?

Not sure about the burlap question but as to the M-1 Helmet Depot question, it appears that the OP was trying to legitimise this "one" by referring to that "one". Of course, we need to stick to this one helmet and not name drop in order to somehow make this helmet equal to another in order to change the direction of the conversation on this one...I think I just confused myself. 🙄

#163 kammo-man

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 04:44 AM

Smoke and mirrors.



#164 usoverlord

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 06:47 AM

All this bickering back and forth really should stop. I see nothing of any use beyond this point. I believe the mission goal  of this website is to enlighten and inform. Unfortunately you're at risk of chasing away the novice collectors among your numbers.  We hesitate to post pics or to seek advise in fear of outright humiliation. This thread should be locked, blocked and chocked. At least temporarily. I for one am done with it, USOVERLORD out...................................................



#165 Blacksmith

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 07:19 AM

I do not intend this in any mean way, but if you do not like what you are reading, you can always choose to not read it. While I whole-heartedly agree that we should treat each other with respect, I also think we can be a little thin-skinned at times. I am not sure if that is a reflection of the perpetually-offended times we are living in or what. I am sure we all have different standards as to what is / is not bothersome, which is why the moderators are here to make sure we stay within common parameters. So, we as members - including you - do not have to play the role of cop.


All this bickering back and forth really should stop. I see nothing of any use beyond this point. I believe the mission goal  of this website is to enlighten and inform. Unfortunately you're at risk of chasing away the novice collectors among your numbers.  We hesitate to post pics or to seek advise in fear of outright humiliation. This thread should be locked, blocked and chocked. At least temporarily. I for one am done with it, USOVERLORD out...................................................



#166 Eric Queen

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 07:31 AM

A dumb question from the novice bleachers. If I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, but didn't Doug Bailey obtain one of these burlap/net covered helmets directly from the Raider vet (which is how he obtained most of his stuff). Wasn't it pictured in Grunt Gear or some other publication? Perhaps someone can obtain better photos from Doug? Just thought it would be interesting to see one with true provenance for comparative purposes. Just a thought. 



#167 Blacksmith

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 08:06 AM

Hi Eric - I talked to another collector friend Friday night, and he mentioned Doug*s helmet as well. I just thumbed through Alec*s book, and saw two pages with Raider helmets - three references total. Two period photos, one on p.49, and one on p.264; and, Doug*s helmet pictured - also on p.49. Doug*s known original looks nothing like the examples posted here. It has burlap as a base cover, with long scrim-like pieces of another fabric on top. It looks like khaki HBT actually. The Raider photo on that same page has two burlap covers - again, neither similar to examples posted here. The 1943 training photo, on p.264, does show a net over some cloth base cover, which could be burlap. It is hard to tell from the photo.

And respectfully, before anybody asks, I will not post these photos, as they are from a published work.

#168 Burning Hazard

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 08:06 AM

A dumb question from the novice bleachers. If I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, but didn't Doug Bailey obtain one of these burlap/net covered helmets directly from the Raider vet (which is how he obtained most of his stuff). Wasn't it pictured in Grunt Gear or some other publication? Perhaps someone can obtain better photos from Doug? Just thought it would be interesting to see one with true provenance for comparative purposes. Just a thought. 

 

I think that was from Mike S book:

 

http://www.usmilitar...-burlap-helmet/

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#169 Blacksmith

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 08:33 AM

Great link BH - I never considered that burlap covers were used well into Vietnam. So, even if original (whatever that means), impossible to verify when a burlap camo cover was created. Yikes, I guess I will steer clear of any that are not direct purchase or has an iron-clad chain of custody.

#170 cutiger83

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 08:47 AM

I do not intend this in any mean way, but if you do not like what you are reading, you can always choose to not read it. While I whole-heartedly agree that we should treat each other with respect, I also think we can be a little thin-skinned at times. I am not sure if that is a reflection of the perpetually-offended times we are living in or what. I am sure we all have different standards as to what is / is not bothersome, which is why the moderators are here to make sure we stay within common parameters. So, we as members - including you - do not have to play the role of cop.



The OP has repeatedly asked for everyone to wait until he is home and can post pictures of it. Yet the bashing has continued on for 7 pages. How is that being thin skinned?

Not trying to be confrontational but he ask asked repeatedly for 7 pages.

#171 pararaftanr2

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 09:39 AM

The OP has repeatedly asked for everyone to wait until he is home and can post pictures of it. Yet the bashing has continued on for 7 pages. How is that being thin skinned?

Not trying to be confrontational but he ask asked repeatedly for 7 pages.

Perhaps a better question would be how prudent is it for a collector to post something on the Forum as a "Holly Grail" item 2-3 weeks before even having done an "in hand" inspection or taken their own photos of said item, then asking everyone to reserve judgement in the meantime? I would expect that approach to open the item to a healthy amount of skepticism from those who are experienced collectors in that particular field.


Edited by pararaftanr2, 10 November 2019 - 09:40 AM.


#172 tarbridge

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 09:44 AM

I will lock this thread until the OP receives said helmet...at that point I will reopen. Tarbridge

OP.Please contact me to start the thread once again.


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