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The “Holy Grail” of Raider helmets


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#51 ludwigh1980

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 08:17 AM

To be honest, I think all four look suspect. Is there one from a highly regarded public institution's collection for examination, IE the Marine Corps or Smithsonian? If one exists they will have an example of such.  



#52 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 08:19 AM

Dean ,
You have proved NOTHING point by point.
Telling me to google Hessian......
Really.?
 
Funny the helmet is rotten from RUST inside.
uuuuuuuuuuuummmm.
From an organic side it dosnt add up.
Helmet was stored upside down in sea water for decades yet the uber fragile burlap-hessian remains intact in an artistic way.
 
Its reality check time.
   
Or 
Common sense time.
 
Your knee jerk reaction is typical of a buyer of militaria who wants to believe in their new shiney purchase being real.
I understand and have seen it countless times.
Its just not your day.


Owen as seen here many times brother the reality check is and always will be how you respond and handle yourself and every topic on this forum.

Thats your opinion and thats fine by me , like all the opinions here thats fine. But thats all they are, educated opinions. A persons perspective on an item or items.

With regards to what day it is Im Happy to say its Thursday and Im away on work on a hot beach getting paid for it.

Once again thanks for the opinion mate and when I get it in hand we can have at it again.


- Dean

Edited by ArchangelDM, 07 November 2019 - 08:20 AM.


#53 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 08:21 AM

To be honest, I think all four look suspect. Is there one from a highly regarded public institution's collection for examination, IE the Marine Corps or Smithsonian? If one exists they will have an example of such.  


And your reasoning behind this comment ?

#54 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 08:31 AM

Once again I would like to thank everyone for their opinions

I will reveal all when I’m back In 3 weeks

- Dean

#55 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 08:32 AM

Just a shot of some raiders to show how similar the helmets are to the photos

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#56 manayunkman

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 08:47 AM

Where did these helmets all originate from?

Had I found a helmet like this out of the woodwork there would be information supporting the claim.

But none of these helmets have a backstory.

They just appeared on dealer sites?

Ive had several burlap helmets found from vets or families.

They were all a dusty mess.

Very dusty under the burlap.

Very fragile too.

It time to find out where they came from.

#57 Blueprint

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:00 AM

If I rightly recall the seller mentioned that it came from an collector who had let go some of his items after 60 years.

In all of his helmets where tags, you can see it on one of Deans pictures, which describes the helmet. Maybe there is more information on the origin of the helmet.

Since the seller is first, reputable, and second, that it came from a old collector, I hardly doubt that the helmet was artificially aged on that scale in the past century...

To me it looks good and lets please wait until more detailed pictures are given to investigate it.

Blueprint

#58 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:02 AM

Where did these helmets all originate from?

Had I found a helmet like this out of the woodwork there would be information supporting the claim.

But none of these helmets have a backstory.

They just appeared on dealer sites?

Ive had several burlap helmets found from vets or families.

They were all a dusty mess.

Very dusty under the burlap.

Very fragile too.

It time to find out where they came from.


Have you got any photos of those helmets please ?
Feel like Im going round In circles here,
The helmet is NOT in hand to see how dusty or fragile it is, you can see the grime and dirt on it. With regards to dust inside a liner under the burlap or under a camp cover I have several named USMC sets that have been used in theatre and Im yet to find anything more than a little dirt or grime under there.

With regards to back story, this came from the max show and the seller is here in the UK. Im
Asking him the name of the seller at the show.

My other came from Steve at M1 helmet depot with no story

My burlap from Steve is fragile, the paint and burlap is brittle, the helmet is correct.

Thanks

- Dean

#59 kammo-man

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:07 AM

What do you mean how I handle myself in every thread ? 

Explain your comment.



#60 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:07 AM

If I rightly recall the seller mentioned that it came from an collector who had let go some of his items after 60 years.

In all of his helmets where tags, you can see it on one of Deans pictures, which describes the helmet. Maybe there is more information on the origin of the helmet.

Since the seller is first, reputable, and second, that it came from a old collector, I hardly doubt that the helmet was artificially aged on that scale in the past century...

To me it looks good and lets please wait until more detailed pictures are given to investigate it.


Thank you Blueprint

I concur and feel that without me adding some close up pics of it, its rather unfair for people to be jumping on the wagon of it not being correct. I like the helmet from the pics, thats why I bought it.
The seller is also a friend


- Dean

Blueprint


Edited by ArchangelDM, 07 November 2019 - 09:09 AM.


#61 kammo-man

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:13 AM

To be honest, I think all four look suspect. Is there one from a highly regarded public institution's collection for examination, IE the Marine Corps or Smithsonian? If one exists they will have an example of such.  

Pretty much.

 

 

I just got off the phone with a 40 year USMC collector and asked him about raider helmets.

He had never seen one that came from a grouping or had linage on it.

He aslo stated hes seen several junk ones .....old school term for repo.

 

FYI 



#62 kammo-man

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:20 AM

Where did these helmets all originate from?

Had I found a helmet like this out of the woodwork there would be information supporting the claim.

But none of these helmets have a backstory.

They just appeared on dealer sites?

Ive had several burlap helmets found from vets or families.

They were all a dusty mess.

Very dusty under the burlap.

Very fragile too.

It time to find out where they came from.

You have been around long enough to smell a rat.

 



#63 manayunkman

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:33 AM

I’ve been pulling things out of the woodwork for 50 plus years.

I stopped buying from dealers in 1987.

In all those years I have only found two helmets with burlap both German.

I never took pictures back then sorry but I do remember offloading them in a hurry because they were dusty fragile messes.

Very much like the British helmet you posted.

Dust builds up under the burlap as it falls appart, that’s what it does.

Dust also builds up on the burlap often changing the color permanently.

All these helmets have a fresh clean look.

I have nothing against fresh and clean after all there are many things I enjoy that are fresh and clean.

#64 kammo-man

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:38 AM

Fresh and clean burlap on the outside.

Rusty mess in the inside.

 

This helmet is the opposite of what it should be.

 

Pretty simple.



#65 king802

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:51 AM

This latest helmet was brought back from the Max show by the UK dealer Regimentals.
Its in the video link below.

https://youtu.be/05SDMalV6ck

Edited by king802, 07 November 2019 - 09:59 AM.


#66 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:08 AM

Ive been pulling things out of the woodwork for 50 plus years.

I stopped buying from dealers in 1987.

In all those years I have only found two helmets with burlap both German.

I never took pictures back then sorry but I do remember offloading them in a hurry because they were dusty fragile messes.

Very much like the British helmet you posted.

Dust builds up under the burlap as it falls appart, thats what it does.

Dust also builds up on the burlap often changing the color permanently.

All these helmets have a fresh clean look.

I have nothing against fresh and clean after all there are many things I enjoy that are fresh and clean.



I have not got it In hand for closer pics of whats under the burlap , but I will have soon

#67 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:10 AM

Fresh and clean burlap on the outside.
Rusty mess in the inside.
 
This helmet is the opposite of what it should be.
 
Pretty simple.


Owen there is nothing clean and fresh on the outside of the burlap whatsoever that i see -
I really cant wait to get this in hand.

Im still standing by this one until Im proven wrong by actually seeing it and having close up pics

#68 Pegasus6

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:11 AM

Well, I for one look forward to more pictures. There can be many reasons how a Helmet, can age, show rust, not have rust, and many of these things depend on storage, and how it was stored, over the course of the past 75 years... I think that Dean will do a fantastic job reviewing the entirety of the helmet, when he gets the opportunity to have it in hand. He will take a holistic view of wear. But as mentioned you could have a raider helmet, and said raider never got into action or saw much action.... The raiders trained in California Stateside as well, and in Hawaii. There was a pretty big rivalry between the Paramarines and Raiders, and they did quite a bit of training exercises at Pendleton. I do hope there might be some identifying markings on the helmet, I am excited to see close-ups of the fabric.

 

I cant say that I have a raider "" helmet, or a VN era advisor helmet helmet but I do have this FS/FBm HS 699B, that at one point had a burlap cover, and the frog-skin pattern painted all over it. As well as a name that I cant track down appears to be a Thomas Zitella/Zitello/Zitelia in the liner, and shell has in black a "1291" maybe and an unreadable name maybe "Storic" can really only make out for sure "xTobix" The liner seems to have been with the helmet for a while. For all I know this one could be a WWII Raider, a WWII marine, a Korea Marine, a VN advisor... or a kid who just wanted to have a raider looking helmet? I think the last one is the least probable. But sharing this for additional views of how at least a 55+ year burlap painted cover could age.

 

Lets not just jump to conclusions. Are there reproductions out there? Yes, are there fakes yes? Hundreds of Marine raider helmets were crafted in the fashions shown. Its very possible it may be original... Dean has been collecting and reviewing this specific topic/artifacts for years. He is not sharing on here because he believes he has a fake. I'm sure just like any of us, he will be going over it with magnification lenses, and every nook. None of us like to be had. Lets see what he finds. It sure looks the part from PHOTOS we are seeing based on the terrible resolution of our FREE to use forum.

 

VR

-Peg6

 

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#69 Pegasus6

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:12 AM

more

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#70 Pegasus6

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:13 AM

both outsides.

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#71 kammo-man

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:24 AM

If you do not have the helmet in hand then WHY post it ?

 

Are you looking for opinions before your in hand inspection time period has ran out ? 

 

Its weird.



#72 Pegasus6

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:31 AM

Kammo,

 

I  think the answer is obvious, who wouldn't be elated to share what they have acquired. And he has the high resolution photos to view, we do not... And you can see rust bleeding through at least I believe I see that.

 

Paint also has a way of preserving fabric, you can see rust through. The top of the liner may not show, as the liner wont sit flush against the steel with the cover in place. Thus theres a pocket between steel and liner, for moisture to build up and cause the inner shell rust. One thing to consider.

 

-Peg6



#73 kammo-man

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:32 AM

Owen there is nothing clean and fresh on the outside of the burlap whatsoever that i see -
I really cant wait to get this in hand.

Im still standing by this one until Im proven wrong by actually seeing it and having close up pics

Talk about the inside.



#74 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:34 AM

If you do not have the helmet in hand then WHY post it ?
 
Are you looking for opinions before your in hand inspection time period has ran out ? 
 
Its weird.



Owen I truly believe it too be a good one,
You and others have posted some points I would like to look at up close.

Also with regards to weird, I havent met a collector that was not a little bit weird or kookie in my time of doing this. We must all be a bit mad to open our collection and our sanity to this Hobby.

You make some good points but please let me get it in hand before sending it to the hangman and totally shunning it. It may even be named ?


- Dean

#75 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 10:37 AM

Kammo,
 
I  think the answer is obvious, who wouldn't be elated to share what they have acquired. And he has the high resolution photos to view, we do not... And you can see rust bleeding through at least I believe I see that.
 
Paint also has a way of preserving fabric, you can see rust through. The top of the liner may not show, as the liner wont sit flush against the steel with the cover in place. Thus theres a pocket between steel and liner, for moisture to build up and cause the inner shell rust. One thing to consider.
 
-Peg6


Peg6 Thankyou for the comments for the helmet, I also agree with your statements. There is a lot of space between the helmet and liner due to the burlap Im sure which would allow moisture to build up.

Some excellent points and observations mentioned

Yours
Dean


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