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The “Holy Grail” of Raider helmets


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#26 ArchangelDM

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 10:05 AM

Wow I love that helmet, I really hope that you can find a researchable name because there has to be an amazing history to this one. 


Most definitely,
The Marine Raiders were originally elite units established by the United States Marine Corps during World War II to conduct special amphibious light infantry warfare, particularly in landing in rubber boats and operating behind the lines.

The camo scheme looks perfect for the swamps on Guadalcanal, that black and dark green.

Hoping I can find a name somewhere, looks like this helmet has seen a ton of action and shows lots of signs of being in a tropical theatre of war.

Ill update as soon as I have it in hand
Thanks for the comments and stay tuned
- Dean

#27 ArchangelDM

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 10:09 AM

Dean, is there any words that can really discribe how you truly feel. CONGRATULATIONS on this helmet, she is an incredible find and having two of such a rare helmet is is unbelievable. Im very happy for you and looking forward to more pictures.


Marty



Thankyou Brother

When this came up the other day I didnt quite know what to say, the photos had me speechless. Its everything I want and dreamed of in a combat used USMC helmet and I'm just so lucky to be the caretaker of it.

2nd time lucky on these rare helmets, I doubt Ill ever own a third.

- Dean

#28 whitecap

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 12:06 PM

Dean,

 

Glad you got it, cant wait to see more pictures when you have it in hand.

 

Rich



#29 ArchangelDM

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 12:12 PM

Dean,
 
Glad you got it, cant wait to see more pictures when you have it in hand.
 
Rich


Thanks Rich

I appreciate that my friend

#30 rooster77

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 06:10 PM

Thats awesome !!!!! Congratulations on picking it up !!



#31 kammo-man

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 07:54 PM

How much was it ?



#32 ArchangelDM

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 09:40 PM

Thats awesome !!!!! Congratulations on picking it up !!


Cheers rooster

#33 MCDUFF

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 01:38 AM

A great addition to an already impressive collection....! Congrats Dean!



#34 ArchangelDM

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 02:29 AM

A great addition to an already impressive collection....! Congrats Dean!


Thanks G -
Coming from a friend and a collection I admire thats very kind

Looking forward to seeing you soon

#35 ludwigh1980

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 01:34 PM

Guess I a going to be that guy. For the sake of the science of the hobby.  A helmet cover made of burlap, an inherently fragile material to begin with and terribly suited for long term use on a helmet especially in jungle warfare, not to mention used by a Marine Raider of which I  can only imagine where the combat clothing was reduced to shreds, to survive in place with only paint and fragile twine to hold it on. No significant rust staining on the burlap on the inside where the liner would fit, The shell itself has significant "orange (or new) rusting yet again the burlap is unstained in this area not to mention the top of the liner has no matching rust stain or ring as is often found with helmets that have served in the pacific. Minimal wear to the paint which would have made the burlap even more fragile after 70 plus years. This reminds me of the artificial aging I have seen on Native American artifacts that use paint to hide details of construction as well as a boer war helmet that fetched over 5 grand through a well known auction house that was deemed to be fake.   I respectfully have to disagree as to the authenticity of this helmet, however I am just a  militaria collector and an antique dealer and present my "farbian" opinion accordingly.



#36 kammo-man

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 08:07 PM

I agree.

Its probably a really advanced copy.

US high end market is feeling the pains of the German helmet market.

It was sold cheap acording to Dean in a PM to me.

 

 

Vintage Hessian-Burlap thats 70 years old is brittle and dry to the touck.....

How do I know ?

Well in the US I come across many many western cowboy printed burlap sacks and boy are they fragile.

Dust like.

 

Problem is a jungle worn cover 70 years later even when treated with military paint would be tinder dry and crumbling.

 

You win some you loose some.

The dealer knew what he had and dumped it at a discount.

 

owen



#37 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 12:04 AM

Guess I a going to be that guy. For the sake of the science of the hobby.  A helmet cover made of burlap, an inherently fragile material to begin with and terribly suited for long term use on a helmet especially in jungle warfare, not to mention used by a Marine Raider of which I  can only imagine where the combat clothing was reduced to shreds, to survive in place with only paint and fragile twine to hold it on. No significant rust staining on the burlap on the inside where the liner would fit, The shell itself has significant "orange (or new) rusting yet again the burlap is unstained in this area not to mention the top of the liner has no matching rust stain or ring as is often found with helmets that have served in the pacific. Minimal wear to the paint which would have made the burlap even more fragile after 70 plus years. This reminds me of the artificial aging I have seen on Native American artifacts that use paint to hide details of construction as well as a boer war helmet that fetched over 5 grand through a well known auction house that was deemed to be fake.   I respectfully have to disagree as to the authenticity of this helmet, however I am just a  militaria collector and an antique dealer and present my "farbian" opinion accordingly.


Hi
And thanks for your opinion,
With regards to burlap hand made camouflage covers or even items used in the Pacific do you have any examples yourself to show ? I would just love to see your examples of items used by raiders or non raiders to back up your last comments.
Im not worried about the Boer war or Indian artifacts as they hold no water with what we are looking at.
With a collection solely aimed at collecting used in theatre pieces most of them hand camo painted I can tell you that most if not all of my painted items , even tho a little stiff are not completely fragile and heavily used. What Im getting at is that even In extreme conditions, materials can survive.
Also you dont know the period an item was used for, days, a week not all serviceman and women served the full term, some where injured day 1.

Your comment about there being no rust in the burlap ? Rust bleed through can clearly be seen through the top and sides of the burlap.

With regards to there being no signs on the top of the liner , you can not see the top of the liner. Nor can I because I dont have it in hand. So that comment also holds no water as we cant see the top.

I have 2 examples of burlap covers and there is another 2 on this forum I know of. All of them have the exact same
Fabric, show the exact same wear , are they also fake because there burlap covers also.

However Im just a collector and not an antiques dealer and present my knowledge of USMC items as I see them and as I have them in my collection.

Looking forward to seeing your examples, and Im
Looking forward to having this one in hand

- Lovejoy

#38 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 12:11 AM

I agree.
Its probably a really advanced copy.
US high end market is feeling the pains of the German helmet market.
It was sold cheap acording to Dean in a PM to me.
 
 
Vintage Hessian-Burlap thats 70 years old is brittle and dry to the touck.....
How do I know ?
Well in the US I come across many many western cowboy printed burlap sacks and boy are they fragile.
Dust like.
 
Problem is a jungle worn cover 70 years later even when treated with military paint would be tinder dry and crumbling.
 
You win some you loose some.
The dealer knew what he had and dumped it at a discount.
 
owen


Hey O

Unfortunately matey I 1000% disagree with you,
Hessian bags crumbling when painted ? Dust like ?
I think you need to google hessian

Here let me dump this on this page for you to read,
Should answer all your questions.

Origins of Hessian Fabrics
The origins of Hessian lie in India during the 1600s, when jute was recognised for its strength as a fibre and was used for rope and paper as well as small amounts of fabric. Recognition for the strength of jute came about during the late 1700s as mass production and manufacture began. Due to the density and thickness of the fibres used, Hessian fabrics have a variety of useful properties that aid their diverse selection of uses. Although it often comes in a relatively open weave the thick and coarse nature of the fibres in Hessian make it very strong and sturdy, meaning they are perfect for carrying heavy loads hence its popularity in industrial packaging. Jute is also a very durable fabric that can maintain its high strength under regular wetting and drying and doesnt lose its density under severe weather conditions. As a natural fibre, jute also is very easily treated in a variety of ways such as coating or laminating. Its absorbency also makes it ideal for dyeing and painting and it can be easily sewn to adapt it to a variety of uses

#39 king802

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 12:21 AM

So that’s 4 of these helmets that have now appeared. Your first one from M1 helmet Depot, then one appeared on Baystate Militaria, this one turns up at the Max show and Lux Militaria also have one for sale.
One would be rare but these seem to be turning up regularly - that would concern me.

Of course it’s possible but the chances pretty slim.

#40 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 12:26 AM

Heres a fantastic example - although British they heavily used burlap sacks as there camouflage. Here is a named helmet to a serviceman with a burlap sack thats sat on it for 70 plus years, with rusting. Exact same hessian material and here it stands, no drying out, not crumbling and turning to dust like a vampire in the sun.

Helmet purely used to show that Hessian as a material is in fact one of the strongest materials out there and does not degrade like others.
When wet or painted does not weaken or break as mentioned before.

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#41 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 12:32 AM

So thats 4 of these helmets that have now appeared. Your first one from M1 helmet Depot, then one appeared on Baystate Militaria, this one turns up at the Max show and Lux Militaria also have one for sale.
One would be rare but these seem to be turning up regularly - that would concern me.

Of course its possible but the chances pretty slim.


4 burlap helmets seen out of the thousands of members on here is still pretty low I would say

#42 manayunkman

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 06:24 AM

Here is the helmet from Lux.

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#43 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 06:41 AM

Here is my other

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#44 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 06:45 AM

Here is Dave Gs burlap raider helmet

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#45 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 06:47 AM

Here is my 2nd one


Here Are the 4th known burlap helmets out there that I know of

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#46 kammo-man

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 07:32 AM

If you want to collect reproductions that’s up to you.
If you want to convince your self it’s real well that’s also up to you.
Enjoy your highly suspicious helmet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#47 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 07:49 AM

If you want to collect reproductions thats up to you.
If you want to convince your self its real well thats also up to you.
Enjoy your highly suspicious helmet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think Ive proved my point By your answer

Thanks again Mate

Yours

Dean

#48 Ray42

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 07:51 AM

Maybe we should wait until Archange has it in his hands and someone can actually examine it and provide better pictures before having the debate on authenticity? That way we have more solid evidence to base an opinion on. One thing that I will say in defense of the helmet is that, while I will not claim to be an expert, I think that the condition of the burlap would depend in part on where it was stored and how. While it does get brittle with age it isn't like it is seeing any use or abuse anymore so it is possible that it has survived.  We have all probably seen weirder things in this hobby then burlap surviving on a helmet.



#49 ArchangelDM

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 08:02 AM

Maybe we should wait until Archange has it in his hands and someone can actually examine it and provide better pictures before having the debate on authenticity? That way we have more solid evidence to base an opinion on. One thing that I will say in defense of the helmet is that, while I will not claim to be an expert, I think that the condition of the burlap would depend in part on where it was stored and how. While it does get brittle with age it isn't like it is seeing any use or abuse anymore so it is possible that it has survived.  We have all probably seen weirder things in this hobby then burlap surviving on a helmet.


Some excellent points Ray
As pointed out earlier Hessian does not loose its strength when wet or dried after, in fact its used for sand bags against flooding. What would be the point of a sand bag of it got wet and fell apart so easily.

With regards to the points raised here by 2 individuals, saying that its absolutely impossible for a burlap cover to survive on a helmet thats been also painted is just not accurate and not true.
Here you have 4 examples all showing roughly the same configuration, burlap with net on top that have survived all from different parts of the world.

The British used burlap as there main camouflage source and I have shown a picture of a named helmet that was issued in WW2 and is still here today.

With regards to highly suspicious, that also makes absolute no sense,
Been collecting for enough time to know my way around a M1 helmet and for me this does NOT look like something thats been made to fool or is a forgery.

Its not in my hands yet as Im away with work, but as and when I do return I will happily post more pics. Ive never been shy of showing my collection, and if anyone on here is in London anytime feel free to pop over and Ill gladly show you around.

Thanks again

- Dean

#50 kammo-man

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 08:03 AM

Dean ,

You have proved NOTHING point by point.

Telling me to google Hessian......

Really.?

 

Funny the helmet is rotten from RUST inside.

uuuuuuuuuuuummmm.

From an organic side it dosnt add up.

Helmet was stored upside down in sea water for decades yet the uber fragile burlap-hessian remains intact in an artistic way.

 

Its reality check time.

   

Or 

Common sense time.

 

Your knee jerk reaction is typical of a buyer of militaria who wants to believe in their new shiney purchase being real.

I understand and have seen it countless times.

Its just not your day.




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