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The “Holy Grail” of Raider helmets


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#251 ccmax

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 03:06 AM

No way that burlap survives 75 years intact. Actually a very easy type of field made camo to reproduce. The new sites with those flashy photos are pushing a lot of fakes both German and US.

#252 Dave G

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 04:11 AM

The burlap is preserved under a thick coat of enamel-based paint forming a very hard and durable shell. Additionally the string net hold the burlap even more. Bits of buried burlap are still found at WWI battlefields after over 100 years in the ground. 



#253 ccmax

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 09:23 AM

What raises my eyebrow is the inside. I've found sandbags inside ammo cans, haversacks and for sale with dealers, all presented a really dusty condition due to natural decomposition of the fibers.

#254 ccmax

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 09:34 AM

Wear in the inner shell does not match outside of liner, wear of inner liner does not match outer shell.

Plus that is not the type of liner one would expect to see in an early Raider M1.

#255 Austin_Militaria

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 01:47 PM

There is no proven fact that just Marines wore burlap painted covers. I have seen Dave G's helmet first hand and it is fantastic.

 

This thread is a great example of why a lot of people don't post really great items on this forum anymore, and that is because of all the trolls that come out bashing items that they really don't know anything about.

 

 



#256 kammo-man

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 02:09 PM

Trolls ? Be serious Easy way out comment Beyond lame comment from a professional dealer Owen The thread stater was a complete Troll statement. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by kammo-man, 07 December 2019 - 02:15 PM.


#257 manayunkman

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 02:39 PM

The only way mint delicate items survive the war intact is if they are sent home right after they are made.

In 50 years of picking I twice found items that were made by or for a GI in country then boxed up end sent home before using.

#258 vintageproductions

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 02:43 PM

Rob- I don't see any trolling at all in this thread.

 

What I see now is comparing a completely different helmet then what this thread was started with, like comparing apples to oranges.

 

If you don't want to post items you pull out of estate sales that is your choice.

 

I still see killer items being posted on this forum all the time, and the only section where people constantly post about not posting their items is the helmet section. I have never figured that out, unless the helmet section is where the majority of fake items get outed. Otherwise members shouldn't be frightened to post here.



#259 Austin_Militaria

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 02:43 PM

Trolls ? Be serious Easy way out comment Beyond lame comment from a professional dealer Owen The thread stater was a complete Troll statement. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Owen, you are right. I was name calling. I was just trying to say that forum members are trolling items posted and start an argument just to start one. When the really don't know anything about what they are talking about.
 



#260 manayunkman

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 03:29 PM

I’m sure if you PMd a moderator and brought these individuals who wreak conversational havoc to their attention, they would handle the matter.

#261 kammo-man

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 06:39 PM

Understood completely


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#262 vintageproductions

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 11:43 AM

Kammo-man is having trouble posting photos, and he asked me to show these.

 

He can comment on them.

 

burlap1.jpg

 

burlap2.jpg

 

burlap3.jpg



#263 kammo-man

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 11:57 AM

I agree.

Its probably a really advanced copy.

US high end market is feeling the pains of the German helmet market.

It was sold cheap acording to Dean in a PM to me.

 

 

Vintage Hessian-Burlap thats 70 years old is brittle and dry to the touck.....

How do I know ?

Well in the US I come across many many western cowboy printed burlap sacks and boy are they fragile.

Dust like.

 

Problem is a jungle worn cover 70 years later even when treated with military paint would be tinder dry and crumbling.

 

You win some you loose some.

The dealer knew what he had and dumped it at a discount.

 

owen

 

Thats for posting the pictures Bob.

My posting link appears to be playing up right now.

 

As I posted at the start of this thread I mentioned finding Vintage burlap in the US quite easily.

Here is a perfect example of a 1930-40s animal feed burlap bag for sale at the Rose Bowl flea market Sunday 12 2019

The vendor stated to me he dad sold 6 to a collector minutes before and had missed this one so he hung it up in his booth for the colle tor so see and buy if he came around again.

The price was $25 per bag, and came out of a farming collection.

 

As you can clearly see the correct vintage DRY cloth can be found if one looks.

Thats dangerous as a faker can find it also pretty easily.

My point being the cloth OP posted my have been old but heres perfect stock cloth that may be turned into acover pretty easily, this was doubted that it was possible by OP.

Proof is in the pudding......

Heres the pic crust.

 

owen

 

owen



#264 manayunkman

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 01:45 PM

As far as those burlap bags go, theyre a dime a dozen.

Any flea market, any day, coast to coast, will have something in burlap.

I bought them for props.

Say you want a barn wedding at the local fire hall.

Youre going to need burlap bags, the older the better to give it the feel.

I had a bunch.

Edited by manayunkman, 11 December 2019 - 01:50 PM.


#265 kammo-man

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 03:16 PM

Heres a fantastic example - although British they heavily used burlap sacks as there camouflage. Here is a named helmet to a serviceman with a burlap sack thats sat on it for 70 plus years, with rusting. Exact same hessian material and here it stands, no drying out, not crumbling and turning to dust like a vampire in the sun.

Helmet purely used to show that Hessian as a material is in fact one of the strongest materials out there and does not degrade like others.
When wet or painted does not weaken or break as mentioned before.

Here is Deans post opposing mine showing a heavy damaged Burlap helmet cover.

UUUUUUUUUummmm.



#266 ArchangelDM

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 02:37 AM

I agree.
Its probably a really advanced copy.
US high end market is feeling the pains of the German helmet market.
It was sold cheap acording to Dean in a PM to me.
 
 
Vintage Hessian-Burlap thats 70 years old is brittle and dry to the touck.....
How do I know ?
Well in the US I come across many many western cowboy printed burlap sacks and boy are they fragile.
Dust like.
 
Problem is a jungle worn cover 70 years later even when treated with military paint would be tinder dry and crumbling.
 

 
owen



#267 ArchangelDM

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 02:43 AM

I agree.
Its probably a really advanced copy.
US high end market is feeling the pains of the German helmet market.
It was sold cheap acording to Dean in a PM to me.
 
 
Vintage Hessian-Burlap thats 70 years old is brittle and dry to the touck.....
How do I know ?
Well in the US I come across many many western cowboy printed burlap sacks and boy are they fragile.
Dust like.
 
Problem is a jungle worn cover 70 years later even when treated with military paint would be tinder dry and crumbling.
 

 
owen

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#268 ArchangelDM

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 02:47 AM

Thats for posting the pictures Bob.
My posting link appears to be playing up right now.
 
As I posted at the start of this thread I mentioned finding Vintage burlap in the US quite easily.
Here is a perfect example of a 1930-40s animal feed burlap bag for sale at the Rose Bowl flea market Sunday 12 2019
The vendor stated to me he dad sold 6 to a collector minutes before and had missed this one so he hung it up in his booth for the colle tor so see and buy if he came around again.
The price was $25 per bag, and came out of a farming collection.
 
As you can clearly see the correct vintage DRY cloth can be found if one looks.
Thats dangerous as a faker can find it also pretty easily.
My point being the cloth OP posted my have been old but heres perfect stock cloth that may be turned into acover pretty easily, this was doubted that it was possible by OP.
Proof is in the pudding......
Heres the pic crust.
 
owen
 
owen

  

I agree.
Its probably a really advanced copy.
US high end market is feeling the pains of the German helmet market.
It was sold cheap acording to Dean in a PM to me.
 
 
Vintage Hessian-Burlap thats 70 years old is brittle and dry to the touck.....
How do I know ?
Well in the US I come across many many western cowboy printed burlap sacks and BOY ARE THEY FRAGILE, DUST LIKE
 
Problem is a jungle worn cover 70 years later even when treated with military paint would be TINDER DRY AND CRUMBLING
 
 
owen



#269 ArchangelDM

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 03:03 AM

It’s either that all burlap from 80 years ago is dust like and crumbling or it can survive as seen in the photos as farm feed bags that are clearly NOT crumbling and dust like. I am 100% that there are ones that crumble and are dust like but that’s not the case with these photos.

It’s clear that from those pics they can survive even after farm use etc etc. That was my point, burlap CAN survive if stored correctly. Paint does help it also.

What is also clear is that YES it’s easy to get a period burlap sack for $25 and paint it Up. Totally possible and plausible that has never been argued against.

On a lighter note so some people can move on, I’ll assist, I got a full refund from Regimentals a week ago.

So thanks to Bob and Owen that was possible, advice Was taken on board.

If this comes on the market again we are all more than knowledgeable now

#270 ArchangelDM

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 04:08 AM

Also just to wrap this thread I started up as it seems we keep going over old ground, here are the points to look at

 

1. Helmet I purchased And had not seen was posted (with honest and good will) but with a boasty title 

 

2. Helmet was shown, some members liked it some didn’t, I defended the helmet from the pictures and never saw it in hand, also stupid 
 

3. Some felt that burlap couldn’t survive 80 years so it was impossible for this to be legit, I felt burlap could survive as pics have proven. 
 

4. After several pms and 12 pages later I was advised to send the helmet back, also advised on certain aspects of the way I create and word threads. That was taken on board and accepted. 
 

5. All opinions where taken on board and I stated that on the thread and thanked them. 

 

6. Helmet was sent back while I was away and I waited 3 weeks for a refund.
 

7. Refund arrived and thanked those that pm’d me about sending it back and taking there advice. 

 

8. OP happy for refund and happy lots of members where kind enough to PM me and give good advice. 
 

9. Forum happy that a long term member was saved from possibly getting a dud helmet, got his hard earned money back and also happy that OP has learnt a lot from this thread. 
 

10. Forum also happy that many have now learned from this thread and we can now use what we have learnt when buying new helmets/items in the future as a good guideline. 

 

What more is there to say 



#271 Bugme

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 05:42 AM

What can we say, this forum is full of happy people. Ok, that was a bit sarcastic but, you get the idea. ;)

#272 ArchangelDM

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 02:27 AM

What can we say, this forum is full of happy people. Ok, that was a bit sarcastic but, you get the idea. ;)


:)


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